# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 279
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5563 "2024-02-24T00:21:15Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > well … Or the B-36, 6 turning - 4 burning: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/11th_Bombardment_Wing_Convair_B-36J-5-CF_Peacemaker_52-2225.jpg/800px-11th_Bombardment_Wing_Convair_B-36J-5-CF_Peacemaker_52-2225.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/11th_Bombardment_Wing_Convair_B-36J-5-CF_Peacemaker_52-2225.jpg/800px-11th_Bombardment_Wing_Convair_B-36J-5-CF_Peacemaker_52-2225.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5564 "2024-02-24T00:59:17Z")
As an airworthiness nerd…the whole description of the modification in the article just hurt to read. Yeah, I know it’s a lot of paperwork and testing, and yeah ferry permit applications are annoying, but holy shit there’s an actual reason the rules exist. General aviation has a history in tinkering and mechanics just figuring things out, and there’s some value in keeping aviation accessible in terms of opportunity, but there’s also some pretty clear airworthiness rules and procedures for this type of modification and it sounds like none were followed. I don’t know who has responsibility for recovery here, but the alleged negligence makes me side with the widow. I’d be livid as well and would want my spouse’s body recovered, along with the evidence. I hope she finds justice and peace. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5565 "2024-02-24T01:03:37Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > but vehicles exist which could be rented. In the legal filing I believe she specifically mentioned the submersible used to recover the Titan submersible remains. I was looking for any reference that Brin made promises. It appears that the company that operated the plane made promises. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5566 "2024-02-24T01:18:47Z")
We’ve gone around this bush umpteen times in other threads. When there’s a negligence suit, you sue everyone even tangentially related to the event. Let the judge sort out who’s got actual legal responsibility and who doesn’t. Which often can only be determined after a thorough trawl through everyone’s records. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5567 "2024-02-24T01:26:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I use to really look forward to the [Blue Angels JATO launch of Fat Albert](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHOvoO-6nWQ). had to snicker at that YT comment: _It’s called the Large Person Albert now._ ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5568 "2024-02-24T01:32:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > You know the single line of strobes on approach? [The ones that ‘move’ toward the runway?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xM-Y245kUo) I’ve always wondered how ‘fast’ they ‘travel’. [Per the FAA:](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/lsg/als#:~:text=The%20lights%20are%20spaced%20at,II%2C%20and%20CAT%20III).) I thought I remember reading somewhere (no idea where, though) that they “moved” at about 4000 mph. At least your number has some math behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5569 "2024-02-24T18:36:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Over and over, all the way from takeoff to cruise to touchdown. It took a _lot_ of coordinated 3-person finesse to fly that jet well. Sounds like a handful. It had the world’s largest unofficial speed brake. Only used once and it was for what it was originally designed for. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5570 "2024-02-24T19:29:34Z")
Is joint and several liabilithy in play here? In such cases, it’s common to throw a tangentially inolved person into the case if they have deep pockets. The judge could find the pilots 30% liable, the company that operated the plane and did the mods 69% liable, and Sergei Brin only 1% liable because he should have used a little more diligence in hiring the company or something. In which case, if the first two parties have shallow pockets, Brin could wind up paying 99% of the damages despite being only 1% responsible. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5571 "2024-02-24T20:13:12Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > the B-36, 6 turning - 4 burning: More often, “two turning, two burning, two smoking, two choking and two more unaccounted for”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5572 "2024-02-24T20:15:19Z")
Love that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5573 "2024-02-24T21:34:18Z")
The jet engines on the B-36 had [louvers](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-51603887b8dcbc370f53336f841b8034-lq) on them and were closed in flight when not in use. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5574 "2024-02-24T21:51:40Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > As an airworthiness nerd…the whole description of the modification in the article just hurt to read. Yeah, I know it’s a lot of paperwork and testing, and yeah ferry permit applications are annoying, but holy shit there’s an actual reason the rules exist. I would say they deliberately tried to fly under the radar to save time and money and probably made that worse by not testing it ti ensure it was functional. It could be something so simple as a hidden breaker that popped preventing the pumps from working. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5575 "2024-02-26T07:11:37Z")
Found this, not a whitewash. Below is someone’s summary of the PDF. Pakistan released the final report on the 2020 Karachi A320 fatal crash. – crew did not conduct mandatory landing briefing, being occupied with discussion of pandemic – crew cross-configured the flight management system, combining holding pattern with glide slope acquisition – crew mistuned the ATC frequency with temporary loss of communication – crew removed the holding pattern without assessing aircraft stability ??? – approach slope at 6 degrees instead of required 3 degrees – ATC saw excessive slope and advised abort & circle, which was refused – crew lowered landing gear, but aircraft refused due to excessive airspeed, which went unnoticed – autopilot authority was exceeded and disconnected, after it forced the nose down 13 degrees to achieve the glide slope – at disconnection, a slew of alarms sounded including overspeed, slats, ground proximity, and master warning – gear not down warning sounded, but not noticed – at 7 feet & 200 knots, thrust reversers commanded, but aircraft refused as reversers cannot engage while in flight. – aircraft touched down on its belly and engine nacelles, causing extensive damage – crew executed go-around with intention to circle and land with gear down – engines began to fail and were throttled back, then forward as stall warnings sounded – aircraft stalled and crashed short of the runway, with total loss of life From the report - the Capt had below average intelligence, with little regard for authority. His level of stress comprehension was also quite inadequate. > **[(PUBLIC%20VERSION)%20FINAL%20INVESTIGATION%20REPORT%20PIA%208303%20AP-BLD.pdf](https://avherald.com/files/(PUBLIC%20VERSION)%20FINAL%20INVESTIGATION%20REPORT%20PIA%208303%20AP-BLD.pdf)** > > 19.20 MB Not so long ago it was discovered that the _majority_ of PIA pilots had forged or “purchased” ATPLs. An airline to avoid at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5576 "2024-02-26T07:24:53Z")
Adding on to above. At one point, the first officer advised aborting the approach in accordance with ATC, but the captain responded that ATC will be surprised at how well we do this. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5577 "2024-02-26T07:40:43Z")
Jesus. What a mess. Minor correction, they did put the gear down and it did extend, however later during the approach they put it back up again. This Airbus Safety First article is relevant, and may even have been inspired by the accident. > **[Lining Up with the Correct Glide Slope | Safety First](https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/lining-up-with-the-correct-glide-slope/)** > > The Instrument Landing System (ILS) is accurate and reliable, but the ILS antenna design today causes secondary glide slopes to appear above the primary glide slope. Flight crews must be aware of this phenomenon to prevent unwanted aircraft behavior... ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5578 "2024-02-26T15:22:10Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > the captain responded that ATC will be surprised at how well we do this. This was true. ATC, and all observers, were surprised (and horrified) at how well the landing was done. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5579 "2024-02-26T23:01:34Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Not so long ago it was discovered that the _majority_ of PIA pilots had forged or “purchased” ATPLs. An airline to avoid at all costs. WOW. That would be an unbelievable movie plot. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5580 "2024-02-26T23:44:30Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > Found this, not a whitewash. Below is someone’s summary of the PDF. > > Pakistan released the final report on the 2020 Karachi A320 fatal crash. > … > From the report - the Capt had below average intelligence, with little regard for authority. His level of stress comprehension was also quite inadequate. > > [http://avherald.com/files/(PUBLIC%20VERSION)%20FINAL%20INVESTIGATION%20REPORT%20PIA%208303%20AP-BLD.pdf](http://avherald.com/files/(PUBLIC%20VERSION)%20FINAL%20INVESTIGATION%20REPORT%20PIA%208303%20AP-BLD.pdf) > > Not so long ago it was discovered that the _majority_ of PIA pilots had forged or “purchased” ATPLs. An airline to avoid at all costs. The report says literally “had below average intelligence”. Can that really mean IQ \< 100? I’d have thought it impossible for such a person to make airline pilot even in the most corrupt system. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5581 "2024-02-26T23:46:59Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > The report says literally “had below average intelligence”. Can that really mean IQ \< 100? I’d have thought it impossible for such a person to make airline pilot even in the most corrupt system. I don’t know… they let me fly at a regional. Seriously though, it doesn’t take any great intelligence to fly an airplane, even at the professional level. But I would say, if true, it might have been a factor in the guy’s perception of risk and prioritization of tasks. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5582 "2024-02-27T01:33:13Z")
How would you get past simulator tests? Surely they had to fly under emergency conditions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=278) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=280)