# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 280
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5583 "2024-02-27T12:05:22Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@smithsb](#): > > > > it was discovered that the _majority_ of PIA pilots had forged or “purchased” ATPLs. An airline to avoid at all costs. > > WOW. That would be an unbelievable movie plot. Not a majority, but still, like one third of the workforce. From straight forgery to having someone else sit tests. And it was partly as an aftermath of that crash that it came out. > **[Pakistani pilots grounded over 'fake licences'](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53182750)** > > Pakistan's aviation minister said a large number of pilots cheated in exams or have fake qualifications. [https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/pakistan-says-icao-withdaws-safety-objection-after-pilot-scandal-2022-01-05/](https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/pakistan-says-icao-withdaws-safety-objection-after-pilot-scandal-2022-01-05/) ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2024, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5584 "2024-02-29T08:03:59Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > You have no idea if you can stop or takeoff or both or neither in the remaining distance. My first thought was whether knowledge of the terrain just beyond the end of the runway makes any difference? For example, if it’s shallow water, that might favour an attempted stop over a failed take off that might end by crashing in deeper water. Similarly if the terrain rises steeply shortly after the end of the runway - if you take off late, you might not clear it. Whereas if there is a densely populated area just the other side of the boundary fence, you might decide you have to try and clear that at all costs. But then I realised in many places, if you had the luxury of a flat, empty area beyond the runway, they probably would have used that for more runway in the first place. I also know there are regulations about safety zones after the ends of runways but obviously they are rarely going to be big enough to help much with the most serious mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5585 "2024-02-29T13:58:17Z")
An interesting idea. And one that would have to be thought about in advance of making the mistake in the first place. The folks with that level of planning ahead have little overlap with the folks who make inadvertent midfield takeoffs. Ultimately, once you notice you have a problem there are 5 potential outcomes. 1. Stop successfully in the remaining runway. 2. Try to stop and still run off the end of the runway at speed _x_. 3. Try to go and still run off the end at speed _y_ where _y_ \>\> _x_ but _y_ is still less than flying speed. 4. Try to go and get airborne enough to clear the departure end clearway, but encounter terrain or obstacles further out leading to a full bore crash. 5. Try to go and get airborne enough to clear the departure end clearway AND clear all subsequent obstacles. It’s not always the case that permissive terrain off the runway end is used for more runway. Runways and land to build them on cost money. Local opposition to longer runways and hence more and bigger airplanes making more and bigger noise is also a factor. The presence or absence of EMAS, of a ravine off the end, of rising terrain off the end, of farmland vs city, etc., will each adjust the likelihood of success of failure of the 5 possibilities up or down, and/or increase or decrease the severity of the consequences of picking the losing side of the stop/go decision. Assuming there is a winning side to be had. In a bad enough situation or with late enough recognition 2 or 3 are the only choices on offer; 1, 4, and 5 are already foreclosed For example EMAS makes #2 very safe and #3 safer than it would otherwise be. But might convert a #4 or even #5 situation where you could have lifted off safely in a normal paved overrun into a #3 where you get snared by the EMAS just enough to run through it and out the other side still doing 120+ kts as you enter whatever is beyond the EMAS. As a general matter EMAS is installed where what’s beyond there is stuff you _really_ don’t want to get tangled up in. Bottom line: EMAS helps up to a certain energy level at entry, then it hurts. All of this is serious John Wayne. Not much more can be parsed out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5586 "2024-02-29T17:10:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How would you get past simulator tests? Surely they had to fly under emergency conditions. Apparently not… and don’t call me Shirley. Some airport news: On the Amalfi Coast: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amalfi-coast-airport-salerno/index.html?iid=cnn\_buildContentRecirc\_end\_recirc](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/amalfi-coast-airport-salerno/index.html?iid=cnn_buildContentRecirc_end_recirc) And in Dubai: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/al-maktoum-international-dubai-world-central-airport/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/travel/al-maktoum-international-dubai-world-central-airport/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5587 "2024-03-01T02:50:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How would you get past simulator tests? Just pay off the examiner. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5588 "2024-03-01T02:56:26Z")
You’d think planes would be falling out of the sky in India. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5589 "2024-03-01T04:15:35Z")
Wright Patterson Air Force Base was hit by a tornado. The Museum restoration hanger was heavily damaged and an F104 and a T-33 seriously damaged. The Museum is OK. [Flickr](https://www.flickr.com/photos/wrightpattafb/53558302295/in/album-72177720315118225/) ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5590 "2024-03-01T04:22:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d think planes would be falling out of the sky in India. Pakistan. And at least one did. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5591 "2024-03-01T04:32:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wright Patterson Air Force Base was hit by a tornado. The Museum restoration hanger was heavily damaged and an F104 and a T-33 seriously damaged. The Museum is OK. More pictures here. Planes, engines, and parts strewn about. > **[Tornado Ravages Air Force Museum Restoration Hangar At Wright Patterson AFB](https://www.twz.com/air/tornado-ravages-air-force-museum-restoration-hangar-at-wright-patterson-afb)** > > Imagery of the National Museum of the Air Force's Restoration Hangar 4 following the impact of storms today makes for grim viewing. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5592 "2024-03-01T04:53:45Z")
Looks like an F-15 and a stealth drone in the hanger. Before the extra museum hangers were built they shuttled visitors to one of those hangers to see the overflow planes. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5593 "2024-03-01T15:00:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Looks like an F-15 and a stealth drone in the hanger. [Nitpick] ‘Hangar’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5594 "2024-03-01T16:13:47Z")
Ugh, too bad! I’ve been to that museum several times, as recently as two years ago. It’s a must-see for anyone interested in aviation. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5595 "2024-03-01T16:36:53Z")
I was at the USAF Museum 10 or 15 years ago. At the time, the experimental and presidential planes were in hangars that were on base property, so I had to reserve a time and take a bus from the museum onto the base. Have they changed it; built more space on the museum grounds so they don’t need to shuttle visitors onto the base anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5596 "2024-03-01T16:57:22Z")
Looks like a Stationair? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2024, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5597 "2024-03-01T23:55:23Z")
> **[Report: Boeing may reacquire Spirit at higher price despite hating optics](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/03/report-boeing-may-reacquire-spirit-at-higher-price-despite-hating-optics/)** > > Spirit was initially spun out from Boeing Commercial Airplanes in 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5598 "2024-03-02T05:15:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Have they changed it; built more space on the museum grounds so they don’t need to shuttle visitors onto the base anymore? Yes, there are now 4 museum hangers so everything is safe and secure. No shuttling back and forth. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2024, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5599 "2024-03-02T18:52:49Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Seems like the NTSB has concluded that all 12 stop pins failed, which is what allowed the pressure differential to shove the plug upward and disengage from the frame, allowing it to open as if it were intentional and appropriate. The YouTube channel Mentour Pilot just put out a video which goes into some detail about what went wrong. Of interest he explores the manufacturing mistakes that led to the accident (how the processes failed). [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ROeGKs4xTfs/maxresdefault.jpg "Boeing 737MAX BlowOut!! The Scandal behind Alaska Airlines flight 1282") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROeGKs4xTfs) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5600 "2024-03-03T13:48:01Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Minor correction, they did put the gear down and it did extend, however later during the approach they put it back up again. Not they, he — that was the problem. The FO pulled up the gear, expecting to go around, but did not communicate this to the captain, who was insistent on landing. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5601 "2024-03-03T14:28:49Z")
Now that’s a cluster. Perhaps the FO was thinking “We _need_ to go around. This idjit ain’t listening. I know, I’ll raise the gear and then he’ll _have_ to go around.” There is a real problem when the PF simply is stuck in a bad plan and the other guy knows it. Trying to force a _fait accompli_ is one way out of the impasse. But the problem is that by the time the PF is stuck in that bad mental state, they aren’t thinking; they’re tunnel-visioned on something and ignoring everything else. If the PM didn’t loudly say, bordering on shouting: “The gear is coming up; go around or we’ll crash!”, it probably never entered the PF’s mind. And until the PM gets that acknowledgement by word or better yet by deed, they have to continue to assume the PF still doesn’t get it. Grabbing the flight controls away from the other pilot is really the only reliable way out of a tunnel-vision situation. It’s harder to do when the PF is the Captain, and especially so if you’re from or working in a less assertive culture than brash, independent-minded Americans are used to. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5602 "2024-03-03T15:22:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Now that’s a cluster. That reminds me of a Bob Stevens cartoon. A couple of ‘hot rock fighter jocks’ took up a B-25 after the war. They crashed, and the last panel showed them stereotypically bandaged up in adjoining hospital beds. One of the pilots is yelling, ‘What do you mean “What happened?” _My_ engine was running rough, so I aborted!’ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=279) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=281)