# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 288
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2024, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5743 "2024-03-17T00:26:32Z")
The job I had where I ever had to “choose” was one of “use what the other panels have” and then pass things off to the stress engineers. So I fully admit that I never looked in detail at the various fasteners and the different ratings, strengths, etc. Other people did the math and I liked it that way (of course, when looking at an alternate for procurement, I would compare like for like specifications and do basic checks). I’m a paperwork engineer now. And I also like it that way, very much. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2024, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5744 "2024-03-17T05:19:42Z")
That panel, and all the other maintenance-only removable panels, is/are held down by a shitload of Camlocs. The various panels that are routinely opened by ground service personnel use different fasteners that are also flush but don’t need tools to open. That totally looks like what happens when enough of them were not secured before flight and the door pulled out the remaining attached ones then ripped off near the hinge line. That’s not at all on Boeing. That’s 100% on whoever, airline or contractor, was doing maintenance there and forgot to secure the panel properly. That’s the aircraft left side just aft of the gear well. I don’t recall if there’s a hydraulic servicing port behind there, but I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5745 "2024-03-17T22:25:42Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s an attitude. Third world entrepreneurs generally believe all labor should cost $1/day. And there’s no such thing as skill that matters. They can hire people who tell that’s so so they’re happy. This shit at the bottom of the pyramid is another matter. I was just reading about a Pakistan crash where this seemed to true (although the pilots did have a lot of hours): > On the 22nd of May 2020, a Pakistan International Airlines A320 on approach to Karachi slammed into a residential neighborhood just short of the runway, killing 97 of the 99 people on board and one on the ground. Only two survivors miraculously escaped the burning rubble. > > The story that eventually emerged from the wreckage defies rational comprehension: after an approach so steep it bordered on madness, the crew set the plane down on the runway apparently without having extended the landing gear, causing the aircraft to slide on its engines for nearly a kilometer. And then, as if that wasn’t enough, after skidding across the ground for 18 seconds, the crew managed to pull the plane back into the air and climb to 3,000 feet — only for both damaged engines to fail, leaving the aircraft with insufficient power to return to the airport. The annals of aviation history contain no comparable accident. **In fact, the sequence of errors, reckless decisions, and baffling misbehavior that enabled the disaster surpasses all but the most irredeemable blunders of the past** , calling into question Pakistan International Airlines’ ability to carry passengers with anything close to an acceptable level of safety. > **[Insanity in the Air: The crash of Pakistan International Airlines flight 8303](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/insanity-in-the-air-the-crash-of-pakistan-international-airlines-flight-8303-46bbcc0e5f45)** > > “We can make it, inshallah”: How gross negligence on multiple levels led to one of the most bizarre and needless plane crashes of all time ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2024, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5746 "2024-03-17T23:10:24Z")
Lion Air’s overall safety story makes the mess at Pakistan look pretty darn good. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5747 "2024-03-18T11:10:42Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Lion Air’s overall safety I have flown Lion Air. It felt extremely sketchy, and that was around 25 years ago. It was a short hop, but, really, live chickens in cages in an unsecured pile at the rear galley was a little weird. Can’t now recall the route or destination (possibly Surabaya to Sumba)… just the chickens. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5748 "2024-03-18T15:32:00Z")
The Embraer E190-E2 & E195-E2 super RJs have now been given 120 minute ETOPS certification. It had been planned for that capability out of the box but it isn’t granted by the authorities until the fleet has accumulated X number of hours and operations so there’s a broad enough statistical base for good reliability calculations. Which experience has finally been accumulated. The COVID air travel slowdown really put a crimp in their fleet expansion & utilization plans. There’s nothing “regional” any more about jets 2 hours off shore with almost 3000nm ranges. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5749 "2024-03-18T15:44:02Z")
Always liked the Valkyrie: [https://www.cnn.com/travel/xb-70-valkyrie-supersonic-plane/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/travel/xb-70-valkyrie-supersonic-plane/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5750 "2024-03-18T20:22:37Z")
So sad and pointless that one of the two prototypes was destroyed during a _photo shoot_. ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2024, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5751 "2024-03-18T21:09:12Z")
She’s a beautiful airplane. Got to see her at the Air Force Museum¥ at Wright Patterson in Dayton last October. The fuselage skin down most of the cantilevered nose section is all wrinkled. As much as they care for the aircraft in the collection, you can tell the nose has been pulling down on the structure for decades. Clearly a bird meant to be in the air and not on the ground. Sad to see her languishing in a museum, but to stand under the last one was awe inspiring. The photos and video I’ve been looking at for 40+ years don’t do that plane justice. ¥ Honestly the best aviation museum I’ve been to so far, and I’ve been to a bunch of them, including the two Smithsonian ones. The scope of the collection, how they display the aircraft, and what they share about them is amazing. The two tour guides I had were awesome, too - both had personal connections to aircraft in the collection. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5752 "2024-03-19T02:50:42Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Can’t now recall the route or destination (possibly Surabaya to Sumba)… just the chickens. Probably flew poach. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2024, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5753 "2024-03-19T03:04:51Z")
> [@KCB615](#): > > Sad to see her languishing in a museum, but to stand under the last one was awe inspiring. The photos and video I’ve been looking at for 40+ years don’t do that plane justice. To think, it use to sit outside in the rain. I was saddened to see the KH spy satellite display had been moved. It was next to the XB-70. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5754 "2024-03-20T03:50:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@scudsucker](#): > > > > Can’t now recall the route or destination (possibly Surabaya to Sumba)… just the chickens. > > Probably flew poach. I dream of a world where chickens can be fly wherever they want and not have their motives questioned. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5755 "2024-03-20T11:21:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Probably flew poach. maybe it was one of those pesky Kentucky flied Chickens? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5756 "2024-03-20T16:51:31Z")
And he would’ve been flying a Boeing! > **[Delta pilot gets 10 months in jail for showing up to flight drunk with...](https://www.aol.com/delta-pilot-gets-10-months-152818184.html)** > > When Delta pilot Lawrence Russell Jr. sent his bag through an X-ray scanner, it was found to contain two bottles of Jägermeister. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5757 "2024-03-20T17:31:11Z")
This stood out to me: > Sheriff Alison Stirling said a prison sentence was necessary both as a punishment and for the “protection of the public,” noting that Russell will be able to be re-employed as a pilot after completing an Aviation Medical Certificate. He could?!? Would any US airline re-hire someone who had actually been convicted and served time for trying to fly under the influence? Say it ain’t so! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5758 "2024-03-20T17:42:06Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > And he would’ve been flying a Boeing! Not your fault , but the stock photo accompanying that article is an Airbus. Of course. 🤦‍♂️ There is nothing illegal about having Jägermeister in your luggage. It proves you have no taste in alcohol, but isn’t illegal. The problem of course was the half-bottle in his blood, not the half-bottle in his luggage. > [@commasense](#): > > He could?!? > > Would any US airline re-hire someone who had actually been convicted and served time for trying to fly under the influence? > > Say it ain’t so! There are two choices with alcoholics, people with drug issues, or even people with depression or other mental problems. 1. Ensure they can never work again and therefore ensure they will never seek medical help for their potentially resolvable problem. Instead they will hide it until they’re caught or they have a crash. 2. Offer a no-stigma no-cost path to rehabilitation and reemployment, but only for those who succeed. It’s pretty clear door number one is the worse option for collective safety. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5759 "2024-03-20T18:00:35Z")
I’ve read and completely understood and sympathized with your previous posts about pilots dealing with mental health issues, but I assumed that being caught, convicted, and sentenced for trying to FUI would end a pilot’s career. Do you think this guy will be able to fly again? For the same airline? In this situation, what does the airline do to ensure the guy stays on the wagon? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5760 "2024-03-20T19:22:45Z")
I’d think he’s got a much better chance at this airline than any other. Brand X quietly choosing not to hire him after Delta fires him is easy and trouble-free for Brand X. OTOH, assuming successful rehab, Delta choosing to fire him would reverberate long and hard through the union and the rank and file pilots. So Delta’s strategically wisest move is to leave him on medical leave followed by unpaid leave if /when he uses up his accrued sick time, then take him back if/when he’s soberly ready to come back. Meanwhile he isn’t flying and can’t hurt anyone, nor hurt their reputation. And they are gaining, not losing, reputation points with the union and the other pilots who might need that service some day. Which is the best way for them to reduce the number of these embarrassing events that will occur in the future. For sure there is a big difference between the guy who admits he has a problem and reports himself for rehab _before_ he becomes infamous versus the guy who got caught and _then_ admits he has a problem and begs forgiveness. But let’s think about this one guy as an exemplar. A week before he got caught he probably did the very same thing. And the week before that. For some unknown number of weeks into the past. If he’s already guilty of e.g. 20 offenses, does the fact he got caught on the 21st change much? IMO not. If we close the door to rehab and rehire at the first time the person committed an unnoticed offense, we probably close the door on 99% of potential rehabs. You _don’t_ want pilots thinking > Hmm, I now realize I’m losing control of this situation. In fact I’ve flown while stupid-hung over and maybe even intoxicated once in awhile for, gosh, 6 months now. I’ll have to admit all that to get into the program, and they’ll fire me because of those 6 months. So I either lie to them when I go to them now, or I just keep doing what I’m doing. > > Fuck it; I’ll be fine recovering on my own on the QT. They don’t need to know and what they don’t know can’t be used to hurt me. That’s the standard rationale for every cover-up of every nature in history. Personal, political, criminal, marital affair, you name it. And it _never_ works. So smart managements don’t set their workers up to go down that path. I don’t know the specifics of how they ensure post-recovery compliance. But it’s probably pretty intrusive at first. I also expect the pros in the rehab business have a pretty good idea of who really gets sincerely and gratefully on the wagon for life and who’s just phoning it in and is therefore likely to be a recidivist. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5761 "2024-03-20T19:57:18Z")
As in your similar posts on mental illness, this is all eminently sensible and reasonable. So is it likely to be what actually happens? Especially since it has become a relatively high-profile case? Will the airline be sensible and reasonable despite the potential for bad press? Will the union back the pilot up? Will the fact that he seems to have had automobile DUIs count against him? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/5762 "2024-03-20T20:07:45Z")
Lotta impractically detailed questions there about what’s inherently an individual case. Per the cited AOL article this individual is 63 years old. So has between 12 and 24 months left in his career. In his particular case and with his auto DUI history I’d expect him to simply retire. Or, in more detail, go out on sick leave until he consumes his sick leave balance then retire. With the company encouraging him to do so every step of that way. I’ve about said all I care to say on this topic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=287) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=289)