# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 303
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2024, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6043 "2024-05-09T17:51:17Z")
Thanks mnemosyne. Great information.
Shouldn’t be hard to certify the process was done right.
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### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6044 "2024-05-09T18:29:44Z")
Often, the solution is to ensure the test is done by just doing it again.
I’ve been involved in a case where the solution was a fairly simple fix, but the access involved to do it was extensive and complicated. The aircraft, once assembled, didn’t give access to the required area easily, and putting things back together was impossible to do per the original design with solid rivets as there wasn’t any room to buck the tails on them. In production, these fasteners were installed before major assembly of the aircraft. In the end it was possible to use hi-lite fasteners, but not before redoing the zone’s structural analysis and damage tolerance assesments and all the work to certify a change to the type design. All to more securely clamp a wire to avoid chafing.
Was a nuisance for everyone involved, but was the correct and safe way to go.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6045 "2024-05-10T16:55:26Z")
[CNN: Former passenger jets bought by US firm tasked with creating next generation of USAF ‘Doomsday’ planes](https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/asia/korean-air-747-us-air-force-nuclear-doomsday-planes-intl-hnk-ml/index.html)
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6046 "2024-05-10T18:27:20Z")
I hope they scrub those airframes _very_ thoroughly. It would suck for the Nightwatch A/C to go into operation with foreign surveillance hardware onboard.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6047 "2024-05-10T22:43:58Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> CNN: Former passenger jets bought by US firm tasked with creating next generation of USAF ‘Doomsday’ planes
The company buying them just built 2 large hangers in Dayton OH specifically to modify large aircraft.
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### Author:  [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2024, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6048 "2024-05-10T23:34:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> In the '70s I used to hear jokes along the lines of ‘Never buy a car that was built on a Monday or a Friday.’ If it was built on Friday, the workers were in a hurry to start the weekend. If it was built on a Monday, the workers were hung over from the weekend. Either car would likely have flaws. The quality-control problems happening with the Boeings reminds me of that joke.
It wasn’t a joke. And, although the build quality of cars has gotten much better, the old adage is likely still true. Another factor is that Mondays typically had a higher than average rate of absenteeism, leaving production lines short-handed and possibly missing experienced workers…
It’s appalling that Boeing puts such a reckless priority on meeting schedules. They are literally jeopardizing passenger safety in order to maximize profits.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6049 "2024-05-11T00:13:13Z")
Changing topics a bit, there’s been a bit of solar flare activity lately and we got a pretty good view of the Aurora Australis this morning (spell check wants to capitalise it, is that correct?)
The Southern Cross is visible around the top left/centre of the Aurora.
I was pleasantly surprised how well they came out on the phone camera.
[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/200199460@N02/53711616567/)
[ ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/200199460@N02/53712955175/)
Back to Boeing…
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2024, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6050 "2024-05-11T02:32:48Z")
> [@wolfpup](#):
>
> They are literally jeopardizing passenger safety in order to maximize profits.
But only the short-term profits. In the long run, not so great for the shareholders.
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [May 11, 2024, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6051 "2024-05-11T12:57:59Z")
Wonderful, thank you!
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### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [May 12, 2024, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6052 "2024-05-12T04:04:33Z")
The US department of Transportation has oversight on the FAA which has oversight on airframers and operators. Given United’s recent “luck”, the DoT will be auditing/investigating the FAA’s oversight of United. Part of this is routine, but there are definitely questions worth asking about the overall delegation system for engineering/airworthiness (e.g. at Boeing) , manufacturing (bis), and maintenance and operations (United, in this case, but all operators).
A delegated system can be a good system (and is necessary; the scope of work for large designs requires the in-depth knowledge of those involved), if all members participate, communicate, coordinate, and generally respect their limitations and responsibilities. Complacency is a hell of a problem though. The experts are experts, surely they “know” what’s going on…but they need to be challenged as a matter of course. That’s the responsibility of oversight, to protect public safety.
The airworthiness community has already seen effects in rulemaking from the issues stemming from the Max and other issues in recent years. I predict a wave of new/modified rules and policies directed at manufacturing and operations too.
[https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-transportation-department-watchdog-audit-faa-over-united-airlines-maintenance-2024-05-09/](https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-transportation-department-watchdog-audit-faa-over-united-airlines-maintenance-2024-05-09/)
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [May 16, 2024, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6053 "2024-05-16T08:52:59Z")
> **[DOJ says Boeing faces criminal charge for violating deal over 737 Max crashes](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/05/doj-says-boeing-faces-criminal-charge-for-violating-deal-over-737-max-crashes/)**
>
> DOJ determined that Boeing violated 2021 agreement spurred by two fatal crashes.
Of course, a criminal charge against a corporation is different from criminal charges against actual people. But this is still a remarkable development.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6054 "2024-05-17T17:10:12Z")
> **[Van's Aircraft cleared to exit bankruptcy](https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2024/may/16/vans-aircraft-exits-bankruptcy)**
>
> Van's Aircraft, the most prolific kitplane maker in the world, has been cleared to depart bankruptcy court.
> CREDITORS AGREE TO TERMS; VANGRUNSVEN TRUST TAKES OWNERSHIP
>
> “They successfully navigated the bankruptcy process,” [AOPA Pilot Protection Services attorney Jeremy] Browner said, noting that the general aviation community shared the prevailing view that Van’s Aircraft deserves to survive its financial crisis, and that the firm’s long-term health is good for GA. “Assuming that public sentiment stays on their side, and they continue to provide a quality product, they will stay in business. It’s exciting, honestly.”
>
> Conway called the 83-percent acceptance rate by customers who agreed to complete their purchases for higher prices “astonishing,” telling the court it is “hard to get 83 percent of people to do anything when money is involved.”
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6055 "2024-05-17T17:20:24Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> noting that the general aviation community shared the prevailing view that Van’s Aircraft deserves to survive its financial crisis, and that the firm’s long-term health is good for GA.
I would say that’s a a true statement. These are good planes and deserve to survive as both home-builds and maybe some production models.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6056 "2024-05-17T17:28:44Z")
> **[Plane Breaks Up Mid-Air Over Tennessee, Killing 3 People Onboard](https://autos.yahoo.com/plane-breaks-mid-air-over-173039020.html)**
>
> A Beechcraft V35 crashed near Franklin, Tennessee on Wednesday, killing all three people onboard. This wasn’t the typical single-engine plane crash, as Initial findings indicate the aircraft broke apart in the sky, ABC News reports. A 911 caller...
> Initial findings indicate the aircraft broke apart in the sky…
The article doesn’t mention atmospheric conditions. I recall reading decades ago that V35s were susceptible to catastrophic failures when they are overstressed – like when the pilot becomes disoriented in IMC and pulls too much yoke trying to get out of his situation. But there’s nothing about IMC in the article.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6057 "2024-05-17T17:36:09Z")
Trying to rehab President Eisenhower’s first Air Force One, _Columbine_, the only such aircraft now in private hands: [https://www.firstairforceone.org/](https://www.firstairforceone.org/)
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6058 "2024-05-17T17:52:10Z")
I wonder what they’re going to do with i?. They have the follow-on Supper Connie Columbine III at the AF Museum. It would be great to have a flying version. They’re such a beautiful plane to see in the air. they’re show stoppers at Oshkosh and all the pilots will stop to watch a Constillation fly by.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6059 "2024-05-17T17:55:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#):
>
> [Plane Breaks Up Mid-Air Over Tennessee, Killing 3 People Onboard](https://autos.yahoo.com/plane-breaks-mid-air-over-173039020.html)
I always thought the Bonanza was robust given the military trainer version.
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### Author:  [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6060 "2024-05-17T18:34:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> I always thought the Bonanza was robust given the military trainer version
Not so much. I consider Richard Collins an inimpeachable resource of safety issues and [here’s what he said](https://airfactsjournal.com/2012/06/tail-tale-what-was-wrong-with-v-tail-bonanza-pilots/)…
> I flew every model of the V-tail built and despite some controversy about the structure of the airplane, I felt comfortable flying them all. They did have early wing and center section problems with the 35 but that was made right and, starting with the A35, there we no further real problems except for one thing: The airplane had a high incidence of in-flight structural failures.
>
> In virtually all the structure-related accidents the airplane was flown outside the envelope. Often as not this was the result of the pilot losing control. The airplane had light and delightful control forces and while it was stable in pitch it was less so in roll. If a pilot was going to hand-fly in clouds he had to be both good and attentive. Left to its own devices, a V-tail would be in a spiral dive in a heartbeat. A VFR pilot in clouds was almost autodead.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6061 "2024-05-17T19:32:06Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#):
>
> autodead
I’m going to remember this word.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [May 17, 2024, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/6062 "2024-05-17T20:37:21Z")
Band name!
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