# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 365
### Author:  [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7283 "2025-02-04T02:38:50Z")
Hehehe, the Commemorative Air Force is headquartered near here. An AT-6 is loud, but just about all of the other WWII era planes are louder.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7284 "2025-02-04T02:59:31Z")
I remember an F4U taking off from WJF. (Might’ve been Bill Barnes, but I don’t remember.) The ground shook.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7285 "2025-02-04T05:40:33Z")
> [@scabpicker](#):
>
> Hehehe, the Commemorative Air Force is headquartered near here. An AT-6 is loud, but just about all of the other WWII era planes are louder.
I dunno. I’ve watched just about every WW-2 plane at Oshkosh over the last 30 years and the T6 stands out as one of the loudest. The engine itself isn’t what makes it loud. It’s the tip speed and it’s seriously loud when the plane goes by and the observer is lined up perpendicular to the prop.
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### Author:  [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7286 "2025-02-04T06:29:32Z")
Yeah, it may be due to where we’re hearing them from. When they’re about a 1000 feet up, you’ll hear the multi-engine planes long before you see them, they’re usually the first indication that the CAF is flying that day (and yes, it’s been awhile). You’ll hear the larger displacement fighters well before you see them, as well. You’ll hear the AT-6s and the fake zeroes just before they pop over the house.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7287 "2025-02-04T14:22:17Z")
I had no idea it was _this_ bad.
> **[America desperately needs more air traffic controllers. So why is it so tough...](https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/04/business/air-traffic-controller-shortage/index.html)**
>
> The US air traffic control system has been stretched nearly to its breaking point by a decades-long staffing shortage. It’s causing problems not just for the air traffic controllers that remain but the flying public at large.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2025, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7288 "2025-02-04T14:40:19Z")
Decades of Congress refusing to authorize more headcount, the tsunami of retirements, then the huge headfake (and attrition) of COVID.
And now they are so far behind with an inadequately sized antiquated training system that they’ll never catch up.
The political level of the FAA, mindful of which way the congressional wind was blowing, has for my entire time in industry placed magical degrees of faith in future automation to save enough headcount that all the hiring would be unnecessary.
Oddly enough, considering the history of every large IT project ever, the results are much smaller and far later in coming than they were advertised to be.
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### Author:  [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2025, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7289 "2025-02-05T18:22:22Z")
You couldn’t get me up in _this_ plane.
> **[The curious case of the Boeing plane that diverted four times in 25 days](https://www.aol.com/lifestyle/curious-case-boeing-plane-diverted-120000217.html)**
>
> An American Airlines Boeing 787 aircraft has diverted four times in four different cities within just 25 days, sparking debate among online aviation sleuths.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2025, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7290 "2025-02-05T22:27:55Z")
As to the AA 787, once in awhile gremlins are very hard to find. Even absent news media interest good bet AA is going to keep that plane near home until they can get a definitive fix. In the case of a shorter range jet, the passenger and network impacts of a return to takeoff station are pretty small.
OTOH, for a long haul international, the effects on the people and the subsequent network flow can be pretty awful.
The fact they held for a couple hours after at least one of the events suggest there’s no great hazard here. If it was dangerous, they’d prioritize minimum time in the air.
An issue that affects long haul flights is so-called ETOPS or EROPS checks. There are lots of things that can be broken and you can still fly the jet just fine for a few days until it can be fixed. But the list is MUCH more restrictive if the flight will get far offshore. If there’s an intermittent fault in one such system you have a jet that could legally fly around in the USA or Caribbean or up & down to / from South America over and over with the issue, but can’t go across the Atlantic even once.
From the same AOL page:
> **[Japan Airlines plane struck the tail of Delta Airlines plane at...](https://www.aol.com/japan-airlines-plane-struck-tail-213852735.html)**
>
> No injuries were reported in the incident.
The vid in there shows this was not a case of misjudging by inches. A good 15 feet of JALs’ wing is on the far side of Delta’s vertical tail.
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### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2025, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7291 "2025-02-06T01:46:21Z")
Michael DiCiurcio has his day in [court](https://www.justice.gov/usao-edpa/pr/consent-judgment-entered-against-philadelphia-drone-flyer-violations-faa-regulations); he was the a-hole who did all sorts of stoopit & inappropriate stuff with his drone & posted it on youtube (or FB) live, which made it real easy for the Feds to figure out the dates of flights & then throw the book at him for all that were within the statue of limitation, _after_ they talked to him about not doing stoopit stuff, _multiple_ times. Buh-bye!
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2025, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7292 "2025-02-07T14:21:30Z")
There goes another one.
> **[Crews searching open waters in Alaska for flight that went missing with 10 on...](https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/07/us/alaska-cessna-bering-air-hnk/index.html)**
>
> A search of Alaskan waters is underway in rough weather after a regional airline flight with 10 people on board went missing, according to local and state officials.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2025, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7293 "2025-02-07T15:06:19Z")
From the cited article:
> US Sen. Dan Sullivan of Alaska [posted](https://www.facebook.com/SenDanSullivan) about the incident: “We are hearing reports of a possible missing plane en route to Nome. Our thoughts and prayers are with the passengers, their families and the rescue crew.”
Once again, no mention of the plane’s crew or their families. Or family singular in this case. The crew (of 1 in this case) are just as human and just as dead or quickly freezing on an ice floe as the passengers are.
A pet peeve, but one I see far more often than not.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2025, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7294 "2025-02-07T18:35:17Z")
For civilians, “passengers” means “people on the plane”, including the plane driver. When there’s a car wreck, they don’t talk about the car having three people and a driver.
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### Author:  [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2025, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7295 "2025-02-07T22:52:23Z")
I’m a civilian, and I wouldn’t interpret “passengers” in a news report about a crash as including crew. “People,” yes; “passengers,” no.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2025, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7296 "2025-02-07T23:59:35Z")
[Plane located that matches the one that went missing in Alaska with 10 aboard; 3 bodies found](https://www.yahoo.com/news/crews-search-missing-alaska-plane-051520066.html)
> JUNEAU, Alaska (AP) — A plane was located on sea ice that matches the description of the one that went missing in Alaska on its way to the hub community of Nome with 10 aboard, authorities said Friday. Three bodies were found inside the aircraft.
Cessna 208 Caravan.
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### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7297 "2025-02-08T01:48:06Z")
Not that I expect journalists to adhere to this, but the aviation regulations distinguish between occupants (all on board), passengers (not crew) and crew (with further distinction of cabin or flight crew if necessary).
The number of fire extinguishers on board is a function of number of passengers. The capacity of the life rafts is a function of the number of occupants.
It matters for certain things, but certainly shouldn’t matter to the point of overlooking the crew in reporting a tragic loss. That’s just poor journalism.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7298 "2025-02-08T01:56:28Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#):
>
> Not that I expect journalists to adhere to this, but the aviation regulations distinguish between occupants (all on board), passengers (not crew) and crew (with further distinction of cabin or flight crew if necessary).
Towers ask for souls on board when the flight is in danger. It doesn’t resonate with news outlets for some reason.
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### Author:  [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7299 "2025-02-08T02:07:18Z")
Do they really say it? I’ve certainly heard the term in media and such, but I’m not a pilot and it seems rather…poetic…to me? Maybe I have seen it in more formal contexts and it just didn’t register. I agree that that term is fairly easily understood, but does seem a little callous in certain contexts.
I work with the regulations. Occupants, it is. Though now I’m thinking they sound like they’re there rather permanently. “Please don’t occupy the plane, we have arrived, you can leave now.”
I spent 10 minutes today discussing the difference, if any, between something being"conveniently located" and “accessible” vs something being “readily accessible”.
The regulations may have been written in blood, but that doesn’t always make them coherent.
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### Author:  [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7300 "2025-02-08T03:08:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#):
>
> Towers ask for souls on board when the flight is in danger. It doesn’t resonate with news outlets for some reason.
Maybe because it is a stupid term? Also, it wouldn’t be accurate if some of the passengers were vampires or mermaids.
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### Author:  [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7301 "2025-02-08T03:51:48Z")
It’s peculiar to the USA I think. In other countries we notify ATC (either directly or via a flight plan) of our POB (“pee oh bee” — people on board). In the US it is souls on board.
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2025, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7302 "2025-02-08T03:53:28Z")
This came up on my Facebook feed:
> Why we don’t fly in freezing rain:
>
> This week, the pilot of a Cessna Caravan 208 was instructed to hold while approaching his destination in Nome, Alaska. The airport operations team needed time to clear snow and ice from the runway. Local weather stations were reporting light snow and freezing rain (-SN/FZRA) in the area.
>
> ADS-B data shows the Caravan’s airspeed decreasing, followed by a sudden loss of altitude. Radar contact was lost, suggesting the aircraft likely crashed into the Bering Sea, with 10 people aboard.
>
> Takeaway: Most general aviation aircraft are not certified for flight in freezing rain. The FAA Airplane Flying Handbook and most aircraft POHs recommend an immediate 180-degree turn back when ice forms on the aircraft’s structure and is not promptly removed by onboard deicing equipment. Lingering in severe icing conditions or freezing rain can lead to a loss of control (stall/spin).
>
> The NTSB is on the scene and is expected to determine a probable cause in one to two years.
>
> Fly safe, friends.
I read this as opinion, ‘hangar flying’, at this point. Just putting it out here for consideration.
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