# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 373
### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7443 "2025-02-28T22:15:39Z")
That sounds great, honestly. No tedious small talk, no snoring, they don’t complain when you poke them with your elbow, etc.
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### Author:  [@EnglishGrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EnglishGrey)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7444 "2025-02-28T22:17:30Z")
Not being funny, but… why? You can’t catch it (probably). I don’t think it would bother me particularly, as long as they were covered and I couldn’t see them.
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7445 "2025-02-28T22:26:15Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#):
>
> Four hours beside a corpse? Uh… no, thanks.
Dead body was probably in the aisle seat. Having to step over and around the corpse to hit the bathroom gets to be a real drag after the second or third time…
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7446 "2025-02-28T22:48:25Z")
It really sucks on all sides, doesn’t it. But they don’t really have any other place to put bodies while in flight, do they?
Although a smart airline would give some compensation to the survivors of the experience.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7447 "2025-02-28T23:09:13Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#):
>
> I have not, though it was part of training that there are times a first officer would be _required_ to take over the aircraft. No simple answers for that situation outside of a psychotic breakdown or deliberate suicidal intention.
Or incapacitation. PFs (whether the PIC or not) have died, had heart attacks, strokes, subtle seizures, sleep attacks, etc. Maybe it’s obvious to the other pilot, maybe it isn’t. Close to the ground there isn’t much time for guesswork or diplomacy.
One of the scenarios we practiced was Captain falls unconscious partway through a takeoff, where normally only the Captain has abort authority. So FO has to recognize, react, stop the plane and handle the rest of the abort-might-evacuate flail solo. Such fun.
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#):
>
> You can verbalize concerns, but if it gets to the point where you feel your “help” is necessary, it’s time to take over. But attempting to do so during a landing or other time-sensitive maneuver has its own hazards.
Our procedures called for the PF (PIC or no) to surrender if told forcefully. The message being the other pilot sees something you don’t, and there isn’t time to talk it over. Which of course opens the potential for the one taking over being the one with the mistaken understanding of the situation. But historical statistics, of which we have lots, strongly suggest the PM is right much more often than the PF when there’s a difference of understanding of the situation. And perhaps surprisingly, FO PMs are more likely to be correct than Captain PMs. Unfortunately, they’re also far _less_ likely to forcefully take over when they should; Captains generally have no such reluctance.
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#):
>
> I have seen a flying pilot deliberately surrender control in a bad moment, and that can also be fraught. I also know two pilots who were in a crash which was partially caused by the flying pilot trying to give control to the non-flying pilot at a hectic moment and it didn’t go well (fortunately, they survived, but their jet was destroyed).
Here’s a famous example:
> **[TWA Flight 843](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_843)**
>
> TWA Flight 843 (TW843, TWA843) was a scheduled Trans World Airlines passenger flight that crashed after an aborted takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport (New York) to San Francisco International Airport (California) on July 30, 1992. Despite an intense fire after the crash, the crew was able to evacuate all 280 passengers from the aircraft. There was no loss of life, although the aircraft was destroyed by the fire.
> The aircraft involved was a 20-year-old Lockheed L-1011 Tristar 1 ...
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### Author:  [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7448 "2025-02-28T23:19:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> One of the scenarios we practiced was Captain falls unconscious…
There was a Bob Stevens cartoon showing a pilot, an engineer, and an evaluations officer. IIRC, they flew into rough weather and the pilot asked the examiner to help him fly the aircraft. The examiner says smugly, ‘I can’t. I’m dead.’ So the pilot turns to the engineer and says, ‘Jettison that dead S.O.B. and help me fly the plane!’ (The examiner looks horrified.)
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### Author:  [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)
#### Post date: [February 28, 2025, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7449 "2025-02-28T23:22:01Z")
I loved it – thanks!
It made me realize how they can focus on all kinds of things while the back of their mind is alert to their call sign – and that sign changes from flight to flight for them (typically). Like how a mother can hear their own kid’s voice in a crowded playground.
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [March 1, 2025, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7450 "2025-03-01T06:12:34Z")
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GbmGUk8Y0M)
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2025, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7451 "2025-03-02T05:21:24Z")
The TSA and Alaska Air think of everything:
[ ](https://images.spot.im/image/upload/v200/b0dc2988-615c-4d6c-a79c-9dc4cb100549)
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2025, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7452 "2025-03-02T07:01:03Z")
Boeing, Airbus, and other parts suppliers are sending shipments to India (newest hot spot for sanctions busting). Items get shipped on to Russia.
> **[Boeing and Airbus shipments passed on to Russia via India, despite sanctions](https://www.investigate-europe.eu/posts/boeing-airbus-russia-sanctions-aircraft-parts-india-intermediaries)**
>
> Indian intermediaries re-export aircraft parts worth millions from western firms to buyers in Russia, customs data up until last September shows.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 2, 2025, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7453 "2025-03-02T14:14:34Z")
> [@smithsb](#):
>
> The TSA and Alaska Air think of everything:
The ulu (native Inuit knife) is a common tourist purchase up there. Lots of signs at the checkpoints up there saying that your shiny new ulu will be confiscated if it goes into the scanner.
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### Author:  [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)
#### Post date: [March 4, 2025, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7454 "2025-03-04T17:35:42Z")
The FAA is investigating several apparently false TCAS alerts around DCA.
[https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/5173777-faa-investigating-multiple-false-collision-warnings-on-flights-approaching-dc-airport](https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/5173777-faa-investigating-multiple-false-collision-warnings-on-flights-approaching-dc-airport)
There is a known vulnerability in TCAS that, if successfully exploited, could generate false “aircraft”.
> **[Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) II | CISA](https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/ics-advisories/icsa-25-021-01)**
> By utilizing software-defined radios and a custom low-latency processing pipeline, RF signals with spoofed location data can be transmitted to aircraft targets. This can lead to the appearance of fake aircraft on displays and potentially trigger undesired Resolution Advisories (RAs).
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### Author:  [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2025, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7455 "2025-03-05T19:23:33Z")
Petter is upset about a design aspect of the CFM engine found in the 737 MAX and other planes that, after a bird strike, can send toxic smoke into the passenger cabin (if it’s the right engine) or the cockpit (left engine) and incapacitate the pilots in less than a minute.
There have already been two incidents in Southwest aircraft, and the FAA investigated but declined to implement the recommendations of the accident review board.
Petter is calling for people to put pressure on the FAA to reverse that decision.
What do our resident pilots think?
My question for our pilots: one of the recommendations is simply to turn off the pack that serves the cockpit before takeoff, and turn it back on later. Can pilots simply decide do that on their own, without official instructions to do so?
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swlVkYVSlIE)
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 5, 2025, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7456 "2025-03-05T20:35:54Z")
On my phone so this’ll be brief; details later.
It’s not quite as simple as left = cockpit, right = cabin.
Different companies have differing attitudes to cowboy techniques contrary to published guidance. Where I’ve always worked, dating back to USAF 45 years (!) ago, that kind of cowboy stuff was asking for a very unhappy convo w the boss.
Several VERY unlikely things all have to happen to trigger the oroblem in the vid. The odds of causing a pressurization problem are nany orders of nagnitude more likely.
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### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7457 "2025-03-06T02:10:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> are nany orders of **nagnitude** more likely
I know it’s a typo but I love it - “My ex was orders of nagnitude worse than my current SO” 🤣
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7458 "2025-03-06T02:58:25Z")
LSL, a number of questions:
1. Is the APU capable of pressurizing the the whole plane to say… 14,000 feet?
2. Wouldn’t there be a fire warning alert and wouldn’t the immediate response be to extinguish it?
3. how long does it take for the oil dump to stabilize the engine and can you extinguish a fire in the process?
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7459 "2025-03-06T12:58:05Z")
1. Depends on the airplane. For 737s specifically, the APU can provide sufficient bleed air for pressurization up to 17,000’ if there’s no electrical load on it. Or up to 10,000’ if the APU is also carrying an electrical load.
There are procedures for taking off with both engine bleeds off and the cabin either unpressurized, or pressurized by the APU. This is to provide the last ounce of engine performance for not quite big enough runways or especially obstructed departure paths. Something like that _could_ be made the default procedure on every takeoff, but again the cure seems more trouble than the disease once you factor in the probabilities.
2. An engine fan coming apart may or may not involve fire or fire warning. And the immediate action is to fly the airplane and start the checklist. Which might not result in actually shutting down the engine for a minute or three. The John Wayne era of “see warning light → instant mad flurry of flipping switches and yanking levers” is long gone. It’s more successful to do the right thing slowly than the wrong thing fast.
3. I don’t understand what “oil dump” means. If the oil gets into the bleed air flow, the effect in the cockpit / cabin is close to instant; a few seconds tops. How bad it gets and whether that becomes unmanageable is a different question
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### Author:  [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7460 "2025-03-06T13:18:51Z")
> [@commasense](#):
>
> after a bird strike, can send toxic smoke into the passenger cabin (if it’s the right engine) or the cockpit (left engine)
I know engines, being engines, can be used for a variety of powered systems, but sending toxic smoke into either compartment seems unwise.
Especially the left engine.
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### Author:  [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7461 "2025-03-06T13:33:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Several VERY unlikely things all have to happen to trigger the oroblem in the vid.
Boeing (or perhaps CFM, I forget) estimated that it might happen once per year, but then it happened twice in nine months. Possibly a fluke.
But Petter’s main point is that the review panel made several relatively simple suggestions to mitigate the situation until a permanent fix could be implemented, and the FAA did nothing. He suspects political pressure.
If @LSLGuy and our other aviators disagree that these are simple and reasonable measures, I’m interested in hearing their counter arguments.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7462 "2025-03-06T14:32:57Z")
I don’t watch vids. Ill dig up some real info & get back to y’all
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