# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 377
### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2025, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7523 "2025-03-19T00:43:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> No dirty drawers up front.
đ˛
You only dirtied them on the backside; got it.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2025, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7524 "2025-03-19T01:09:00Z")
An interesting bit of non-foresight in my writing. Oops ⌠IOW ⌠I really shit the bed with that one.
I meant âup frontâ as in cockpit. But you got me fair and square. Dâoh!
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### Author:  [@MacDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacDoc)
#### Post date: [March 19, 2025, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7525 "2025-03-19T04:41:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> Had they hit a foot higher theyâd have center-punched my windshield & probably busted through. Decent bet Iâd have been crippled or killed.
You reminded me of a competition sail plane story ( not mine ).
A pilot in a European contest had an eagle strike and it came into the cockpit.
He did survive to tell the tale but damn - eagles are big and full of sharp bitsâŚIâm sure it was dazed or dead but sailplane cockpits are smallâŚwrestling it out of the plane while trying to deal with flying the plane, the broken canopy and an unwanted guest.
đ¤Ş
What a horror.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2025, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7526 "2025-03-20T04:51:38Z")
Preliminary report is out of the Bering Air Flight 445 a month ago which killed 10 people, So apparently a combination of the icing conditions and being overweight.
> **[Preliminary NTSB report on fatal Bering Air crash shows plane was overweight...](https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2025/03/19/prelim-ntsb-report-fatal-bering-air-crash-shows-plane-was-overweight/)**
>
> The National Transportation Safety Board on Wednesday released its preliminary report centered on the Bering Air crash that killed all 10 on board on Feb. 6.
Report is at:
[https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/199662/pdf](https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/199662/pdf)
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2025, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7527 "2025-03-20T22:05:53Z")
Speaking of preliminary reports, hereâs one from the Canadian Transportation Safety Board about the Delta CRJ900 that landed and rolled at Toronto Pearson back in February (first noted here in [The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) - #7385 by Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other/600499/7385)):
[https://www.npr.org/2025/03/20/nx-s1-5334692/delta-plane-crash-investigation-toronto](https://www.npr.org/2025/03/20/nx-s1-5334692/delta-plane-crash-investigation-toronto)
(Via NPR. Actual report document is embedded.)
1100 ft/min sink rate at touchdown. Somehow âhard landingâ understates a bit.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2025, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7528 "2025-03-20T22:45:50Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> 1100 ft/min sink rate at touchdown. Somehow âhard landingâ understates a bit.
That doesnât mean that rate was carried down to the runway but clearly it was a hard landing. Commercial pilots can weigh in on when a descent rate exceeds the ability to flare.
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2025, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7529 "2025-03-20T22:51:08Z")
Reading the detailed chronology in the report, it does appear that this sink rate was present at touchdown.
> At 1412:43.6, the right main landing gear (MLG) contacted the runway. The aircraft was in a 7.5° bank to the right with 1° of nose-up pitch and 3g vertical acceleration, at a **rate of descent of approximately 1098 fpm (18.3 fps)**.
(Emphasis mine.)
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### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7530 "2025-03-21T00:44:11Z")
CNN article on [deicing](https://www.cnn.com/travel/airplane-deicing-science-explainer-scn) explained
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7531 "2025-03-21T01:17:22Z")
Ref
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> Canadian Transportation Safety Board about the Delta CRJ900 that landed and rolled at Toronto Pearson
See actual report here:
> **[A25O0021-Preliminary-Report-ENG](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25598516-a25o0021-preliminary-report-eng/)**
Hereâs the money quote:
> At 1412:26, while the aircraft was descending through 175 feet AGL, its indicated airspeed was 144 knots, with a ground speed of 121 knots, and a rate of descent of 672 fpm. The thrust remained
> at approximately 64% N1.
>
> At 1412:30, while the aircraft was descending through 153 feet AGL, its indicated airspeed increased to 154 knots whereas the ground speed did not change appreciably, consistent with a performance-increasing wind gust. The PF pulled back the thrust levers, and as a result, over the following
> 5 seconds, N1 decreased from 64% to approximately 43%, where it remained until touchdown. The
> airspeed began to decrease.
>
> At 1412:40 (3.6 seconds before touchdown), when the aircraft was at a height of 50 feet AGL, the indicated airspeed was 145 knots, and the ground speed was 112 knots. The rate of descent had increased to 1114 fpm. The enhanced ground proximity warning system (EGPWS) aural alert âfiftyâ sounded to indicate the aircraft was at 50 feet AGL, which is a standard callout.
>
> One second later (2.6 seconds before touchdown), the EGPWS alert âsink rateâ sounded, indicating a high rate of descent. The aircraftâs indicated airspeed was 136 knots, its ground speed was 111 knots, and the rate of descent had remained at about 1100 fpm. The bank angle increased to a 4.7° right bank. The engine thrust was steady at approximately 43% N1.
>
> At 1412:42 (1.6 seconds before touchdown), the aircraftâs indicated airspeed was 136 knots, and its ground speed was 111 knots. The aircraft was slightly below the glide slope, but on the visual segment of the approach and tracking the runway centreline. The rate of descent had increased to 1072 fpm, and the bank angle was 5.9° to the right.
>
> Less than 1 second before touchdown, the aircraftâs indicated airspeed was 134 knots, and its ground speed was 111 knots. The bank angle was 7.1° to the right, and the pitch attitude was 1° nose up. The rate of descent was recorded as 1110 fpm.
>
> At 1412:43.6, the right main landing gear (MLG) contacted the runway. The aircraft was in a 7.5° bank to the right with 1° of nose-up pitch and 3g vertical acceleration, at a rate of descent of approximately
> 1098 fpm (18.3 fps).
>
> At touchdown, the following occurred: the side-stay that is attached to the right MLG fractured, the landing gear folded into the retracted position, the wing root fractured between the fuselage and the landing gear, and the wing detached from the fuselage, releasing a cloud of jet fuel, which caught fire.
>
> The exact sequence of these events is still to be determined by further examination of the fracture surfaces. The aircraft then began to slide along the runway. The fuselage slid down Runway 23, rolling to the right until it became inverted. A large portion of the tail, including most of the vertical stabilizer and the entire horizontal stabilizer, became detached during the roll.
>
> The aircraft went off the right side of the runway into the snow-covered grass area and came to a rest on Runway 15L, near the intersection with Runway 23, about 75 feet beyond the right edge of Runway 23 (Figure 1). The right wing, including the right MLG, became fully detached from the aircraft
Note that the entire quoted narrative is of the final 16-1/2 _seconds_ of flight. And all the exciting shit is the last 5 seconds. This was a _highly_ dynamic situation. At 175 feet AGL ~= 12 seconds from typical touchdown, they were totally normal, on-parameters, & looking good. Then their world went apeshit.
A big gust drove them fast and trending high, they reduced thrust, they started sinking like mad as the gust ended, they recognized the sink rate, pulled hard to avoid the impending impact, while rolling to maintain track and counteract gust-induced roll, then hit anyhow since they had no excess IAS energy to trade for G-energy & sink rate reduction.
They hit good and hard on one gear leg. which promptly failed in overload, as did the wing spar when that hit the ground too a few milliseconds later. Oops. Sux to be you.
So much for facts. IMO âŚ
~1100 FPM is beyond design loads for two gear legs absorbing the impact, much less one. The airplane structure failed more or less as expected given the abuse it was subjected too. Throwing no shade on Bombardier, except for building an 21st century airliner with no auto-throttle.
One can argue the right answer for any significant wind delta event below 200 feet is to go around. But the early indications were not bad, and we donât have insight into the rest of the global situation. So being spring loaded to recover, not chicken out, may well have been the reasonable thing to do based on traffic, fuel, duty day, area weather, etc. Their actual indicated airspeed was not outside of typical parameters even a fraction of a second before impact.
Itâs also the case that a badly _de_creasing performance shear at ~150-200 feet tends to trigger both EGPWS / PWS warnings, and an instinctive escape reaction, whereas the same amount of _in_creasing performance shear is treated as just another gust to be managed. Which usually leads to a opposite _de_creasing performance counter-shear reaction either at a critically low altitude or, more frequently, after touchdown. The latter is trivially manageable. The former is often not. As these poor bastards learned to their detriment.
All in all, the millions of operations around the Americas claimed another example of really bad luck. Should not have happened, but yet it did.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7532 "2025-03-21T02:57:23Z")
LSL, thanks for the report and synopsis. Iâd change the report to replace the word âtouchdownâ with âimpactâ.
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### Author:  [@MonkeysBrother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeysBrother)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7533 "2025-03-21T03:28:06Z")
So they hit the gust 13.6 seconds before touchdown. Even if they had decided at that point to go around, would they have had enough time and/or thrust to succeed?
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### Author:  [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7534 "2025-03-21T06:25:05Z")
I decided not to start a new thread. Anyway, Heathrow Airport is closed for the time being after a fire at an electrical substation knocked out power to a large portion of London.
> **[Londonâs Heathrow Airport announces complete shutdown due to power outage:...](https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/london-heathrow-airport-shut-intl-hnk-03-21-25/index.html)**
>
> Londonâs Heathrow Airport, one of the worldâs busiest, will be shut all day Friday due to a âsignificant power outageâ as a result of a large fire nearby, airport officials said. Follow for live updates
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### Author:  [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7535 "2025-03-21T13:46:28Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#):
>
> [https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/london-heathrow-airport-shut-intl-hnk-03-21-25/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/london-heathrow-airport-shut-intl-hnk-03-21-25/index.html)
Well THAT is going to throw a whole damn lot of the system for a loopâŚ
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### Author:  [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7536 "2025-03-21T14:03:09Z")
> [@MonkeysBrother](#):
>
> ⌠if they had decided at that point to go around, would they have had enough time and/or thrust to succeed?
Almost certainly.
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### Author:  [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7537 "2025-03-21T14:37:08Z")
Iâm tracking a Tokyo-London flight right now - scheduled to land at LHR at 3:45 local time (an hour from now as I write). Iâm curious to see where it goes. Maybe Gatwick?
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### Author:  [@The\_Stainless\_Steel\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stainless_Steel_Rat)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7538 "2025-03-21T15:17:51Z")
Just looked at Planefinder, looks like most flights are headed to Gatwick/Stansted/Luton but not sure if they have handle all the heavies, so yeah, a FUBAR is the likely result.
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### Author:  [@Mark\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mark_Finn)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7539 "2025-03-21T15:23:11Z")
Looks like my Tokyo flight is about to land (400 ft). It flew south over Scotland, but it looks too far south to be landing at Edinburgh. Newcastle maybe? Can it handle a 787-9?
Update: I see a âDiverted to NCLâ.
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### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7540 "2025-03-21T15:46:38Z")
1300 flights a day _not_ going there today. I saw some were diverted to Shannon Ireland; they canât just charter you buses to your final destination from there.
Question - This isnât a weather delay & itâs not the airlineâs fault. Would travelers be compensated, & who would pay for their delay when the airport closes?
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### Author:  [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7541 "2025-03-21T15:54:08Z")
The fire that shut the airport down is now being investigated by counter terrorism police. All starting to sound a bit Die Hard 2. Stay away from the annexe skywalk!
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### Author:  [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)
#### Post date: [March 21, 2025, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7542 "2025-03-21T22:47:53Z")
Iâm also puzzled at how a facility like Heathrow didnât have backup generators - but maybe those were also disabled in the fire?
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