# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 379
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2025, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7563 "2025-03-24T11:26:46Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > And from the “everything you know is wrong” department, Petter explains that it wasn’t the windows that caused the structural failures on the Comet. The comprehensive accident report on the Comet did find higher than expected stresses around some of the fuselage cutouts, but nevertheless the passenger windows were not the proximate cause of the structural failures. The accident report did point to the rectangular cutout “windows” used for the ADF antennas as a possible contributing factor, however. Later models did change the shape of the passenger windows, possibly to reduce stress, but mainly to simplify manufacturing. The change probably helped to perpetuate the myth that the original windows were the problem. There’s a remarkably prescient British film, _No Highway in the Sky_, released in 1951, just before the Comet went into service, about a fictional airliner that is subject to metal fatigue, and the challenges the manufacturing team faces in testing for it. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2025, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7564 "2025-03-24T12:55:44Z")
Here is a very detailed article about the Comet saga by one of my favorite aviation authors: > **[Neither Money Nor Manpower: The story of the de Havilland Comet and the crash...](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/neither-money-nor-manpower-the-story-of-the-de-havilland-comet-and-the-crash-of-boac-flight-781-36db2a3435ce)** > > The story of the world’s first jetliner and its untimely demise, minus the myths. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2025, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7565 "2025-03-24T15:34:16Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > the passenger windows were not the proximate cause of the structural failures. The accident report did point to the rectangular cutout “windows” used for the ADF antennas as a possible contributing factor, however This is exactly what Petter points out, adding that journalists reporting on the story mistook the references to the ADF windows for passenger windows. This led to the widespread perception that the “square” Comet windows were the problem, even though they weren’t all that square, and other planes had windows that were squarer. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2025, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7566 "2025-03-24T22:04:50Z")
Well this has to be just about the most embarrassing reason for a flight to return to its origin… > **[Plane turns around after pilot forgets passport | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/24/travel/plane-turns-around-pilot-forgets-passport/index.html)** > > A United Airlines 787 flying from Los Angeles to China had to turn around this weekend after it was discovered one of the pilots had taken off without their passport, the airline told CNN in a statement. ---
**Author:** ![MacDoc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/macdoc/32/18696_2.png) [@MacDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacDoc)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7567 "2025-03-25T09:43:18Z")
Don’t know if there is a thread for private aviation but I’m a lapsed sailplane pilot and I dearly miss it tho I had 5 years of wonderful flying. Came across this [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WuE2xUZKfCc/maxresdefault.jpg "3900km TRAVEL BY GLIDER ! Cut-off by Heavy Thunderstorm Ep. 1") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuE2xUZKfCc) Perhaps the best example of how good it can be ---
**Author:** ![MacDoc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/macdoc/32/18696_2.png) [@MacDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacDoc)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7568 "2025-03-25T09:49:02Z")
Over the five years I experienced most of what he encountered, cloud streets, wonderful thermals, short cross country, climbing to 14,000’ in a thermal, ridge flying. Clubs are everywhere and you can take a demo flight …who knows you might get hooked. I did and 5 weeks later was a solo pilot ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7569 "2025-03-25T11:34:35Z")
This thread started out many years ago as for lightplane private flying (“general aviation” in US speak). But news in GA is kinda slow and so over time the thread has morphed to GA + bizjets + airlines + airplane manufacturing. But GA in all its forms is still welcome. @3AxisCtrl is an active sailplane pilot here to. Competes too. And an all around great guy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7570 "2025-03-25T13:26:52Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > This thread started out many years ago as for lightplane private flying (“general aviation” in US speak). But news in GA is kinda slow Yes, there is a misunderstanding that General Aviation is aviation in general; so people posted about general aviation instead of General Aviation. Personally, I wish there was a thread for General Aviation. But that bird has flown. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7571 "2025-03-25T13:52:00Z")
Short of crashing/damaging the plane is there a MORE expensive mistake a pilot could make? Fly to the wrong destination altogether? I mean, this has got to be a high 6-figure mistake by the time fuel, engine hours/cycles and pax accommodations are accounted for. In all seriousness, could the pilot have just stayed on the plane? ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7572 "2025-03-25T14:06:01Z")
I’m guessing (wildly speculating/gut feeling-ish/spit-balling) that the airline home office was consulted and agreed or stipulated the pilot return. Wondering why the receiving country didn’t/wouldn’t already have a copy of the pilot’s passport from clearing customs previously (ignore if pilots first trip to said country). ps - keeping a photo of your driver license, other IDs, insurance, passport, medical cards, on your phone helps but is not a panacea. You may undergo additional screening but probably avoid the cavity search 😮 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7573 "2025-03-25T15:03:06Z")
China is notoriously unfriendly bordering on hostile to Western crewmembers. Treatment also seems to vary based on the headlines that week. Xi feuding w trump? Gonna be bad. In general their attitude is that only Chinese airlines should be flying in and out of China. Had they proceeded, the pilot might’ve just been jailed until UAL groveled enough. Darn good bet their HQ made the decision, not the crew. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7574 "2025-03-25T15:10:18Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes, there is a misunderstanding that General Aviation is aviation in general; so people posted about general aviation instead of General Aviation. Personally, I wish there was a thread for General Aviation. But that bird has flown. I suppose we could launch two fresh omnibus threads, one for GA only & one for bigger / spacier. And ask for this one to be closed. It’s already ~3/4ths to the 10K post limit, so getting “full”. We have a fairly small group of regular contributors, so it’s not wacky to expect almost all of us to post in almost the right place almost all the time. OTOH, a lot of what we do here is mishap post mortem, and regardless of big or small, lessons learned cut both ways. So topics leak i to the other world. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7575 "2025-03-25T15:33:07Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Had they proceeded, the pilot might’ve just been jailed until UAL groveled enough. > > Darn good bet their HQ made the decision, not the crew. I find myself contemplating the following scenario. Two hours into a long international flight, a passenger summons a flight attendant and says, “I just discovered that I left my passport at home. I’m sorry, but we’re going to have to turn around and go back.” We all know that the chances the jet would actually turn around are precisely zero. If they wouldn’t do it for a passenger, why do it for a crew member? The consequences for the passenger would be just as dire, especially if a foreigner. Also, I wonder why they didn’t consider the option of just having the pilot remain on the plane, which was going back within a couple of hours with a different crew. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7576 "2025-03-25T16:02:13Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Yes, there is a misunderstanding that General Aviation is aviation in general; so people posted about general aviation instead of General Aviation. Personally, I wish there was a thread for General Aviation. But that bird has flown. Are birds General Aviation, aviation in general, or are we morphing this to all things that fly? 😛 > [@wolfpup](#): > > Also, I wonder why they didn’t consider the option of just having the pilot remain on the plane, which was going back within a couple of hours with a different crew. That may very well not be allowed for security or safety reasons, but more importantly if he deadhead’s back early they’re now down a crew member for what was supposed to be his return flight. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7577 "2025-03-25T16:24:05Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > more importantly if he deadhead’s back early they’re now down a crew member for what was supposed to be his return flight. There’s not going to be a return flight without a plane. The needed extra pilot could arrive as a well-rested first class passenger on the next UAL flight to Shanghai. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7578 "2025-03-25T16:27:04Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I find myself contemplating the following scenario. Two hours into a long international flight, a passenger summons a flight attendant and says, “I just discovered that I left my passport at home. I’m sorry, but we’re going to have to turn around and go back.” For most international flights I’ve taken, I was not allowed to check in online. I was required to check in at the airport and physically show my passport (and sometimes a visa for my destination country as well) before I could get my boarding pass. I always assumed that was to prevent the exact scenario you suggest. IIRC the airline can be fined by the destination country if they transport a passenger there without proper travel documents. The last time I flew internationally they actually did let me check in online, but I believe they made me show my passport to the gate agent. So the airlines have safeguards in place to prevent a passenger from boarding an international flight without a passport. If everyone’s doing their jobs correctly that scenario shouldn’t happen. The problem is that crewmembers don’t go through those same checks. > [@Spiderman](#): > > but more importantly if he deadhead’s back early they’re now down a crew member for what was supposed to be his return flight. Yeah, the way I understand how these long haul flights are scheduled, after the flight the crew goes to the hotel and rests, and the plane goes back to the origin country with a new crew. On the other hand they must have some contingency plan in case a crewmember gets sick while in China or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7579 "2025-03-25T16:34:52Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > For most international flights I’ve taken, I was not allowed to check in online. I was required to check in at the airport and physically show my passport (and sometimes a visa for my destination country as well) before I could get my boarding pass. I always assumed that was to prevent the exact scenario you suggest. IIRC the airline can be fined by the destination country if they transport a passenger there without proper travel documents. I thought of that afterwards, but there are still scenarios in which my hypothetical could happen. For instance, the passenger presents his passport and any necessary visa at checkin, then in the confusion of hasty goodbyes, his wife accidentally takes it. The point is, there is no way, no how, that a big jet on a long flight is turning around for any passengers, except possibly in the case of severe illness or death, or being a security risk. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7580 "2025-03-25T16:47:51Z")
I just found out that a North American P-51D Mustang cost $50,985 in 1945, and a Grumman F6F Hellcat cost about $35,000 (less than half a megabuck today). I would have guessed $100,000 for either of them. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7581 "2025-03-25T17:24:19Z")
I think the difference is that in that case, the entire burden falls on the passenger. China wants to arrest him and put him in jail? Too bad, so sad. But the airline can’t afford to take that risk with one of its pilots. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2025, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/7582 "2025-03-25T17:42:44Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I think the difference is that in that case, the entire burden falls on the passenger. China wants to arrest him and put him in jail? Too bad, so sad. But the airline can’t afford to take that risk with one of its pilots.   But what if the passenger was an important business executive, crucial to the operation of his company? On an international flight like this, there were undoubtedly quite a few such passengers. Yet neither he nor his company, despite their importance and the power they had in their own domains, would have any power whatsoever to divert the flight. UAL diverted the flight, not so much because of the incredible importance of that one pilot, but because it happened to be **their** domain over which they had control; they could do it, so they did, because it was the easiest solution for them. But it wasn’t the easiest solution by a long shot for the huge inconvenience, missed meetings, and missed connections to over 500 passengers – the 275 on the plane, and probably a similar number on the delayed return flight. If I had been a passenger on that flight and lost a business opportunity because I missed a crucial meeting, I wouldn’t be content with a $30 meal voucher – I’d sue the bastards. Airlines can disclaim responsibility for delays due to weather or mechanical problems, but not for incompetence and bad decisions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=378) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=380)