# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 459
**Author:** ![Steven\_G](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steven_g/32/5080_2.png) [@Steven\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steven_G)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9163 "2026-01-05T17:08:36Z")
[https://safetyfic.com/how-to-extinguish-a-lithium-battery-fire/](https://safetyfic.com/how-to-extinguish-a-lithium-battery-fire/) [https://contractlaboratory.com/understanding-the-dangers-of-lithium-ion-batteries-submerged-in-water/](https://contractlaboratory.com/understanding-the-dangers-of-lithium-ion-batteries-submerged-in-water/) Seems that the lithium oxide materials (lithium cobalt oxide (LiCoO2 ), lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2 O4 ), lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2 ), lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2 ), or lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4 ) ) remain reactive. Ideally special extinguishers should be used. As far as I can see, in larger fires (EVs) water is used to cool the whole area, so any cells that are breached will react but cooling will stop others breaking open. So a balance of risks and expediency. However a submerging a smaller battery (phone, tablet) may causing more shorting out and if a cell is damaged, hydrogen will be released. So water may be the recommendation, but to me it seems counter-intuitive having seen Li dropped in water. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9164 "2026-01-05T17:36:10Z")
What fire extinguisher agents have been shown to be effective for this type of fire? What is their toxicity profile like, compared to other agents? For anything you might discharge near people, you have to consider this issue and current guidance for cabin hand held extinguishers is built around Halon 1211 and alternatives like FE-36 and 2-BTP. Trading putting out the lithium fire for unconscious passengers might not be reasonable (and I’m incredibly disinclined to do the math and research on this as a hobby). I do know there’s research on this, I’m unfamiliar with the current state of knowledge and haven’t seen the needle move yet. All that’s been happening is removing Halon 1211 in favour of other agents for EASA compliance but none of that is built around fighting lithium fires. Definitely an industry challenge. These batteries aren’t going anywhere so solutions must be found. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9165 "2026-01-05T18:42:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I am confident that even current, much less 1990 era, fire suppression would have done just about bupkiss to stop an oxygen generator fire. Much less dozens of them going off in a chain reaction. Exothermic chemistry plus pure oxygen = slow acting unstoppable fire bomb. In the Mentour Pilot video, Petter makes a similar point, but suggests that a fire suppression system might have bought them precious extra time. And a fire detector in the cargo area might have gone off before they’d even left the ground. One of the loading crew later said he thought he heard a “click” from one of the boxes as it was being loaded. The final and most frustrating element in this chain of causation was the incredible incompetence of whoever packed these oxygen generators for shipment. They felt that their contractor should have provided the special safety caps that needed to be installed for shipment to prevent accidental activation. The contractor felt that ValuJet should provide them. These are just simple tabs that prevent the spring-loaded igniter from entering the chemical chamber if accidentally triggered. But since nobody had them, the ValuJet employee just said to hell with it and packed them up without the safety caps. And didn’t even label the boxes with any cautionary information! ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9166 "2026-01-05T20:35:58Z")
> **[NTSB to investigate fatal plane crash in Provincetown - The Boston Globe](https://www.bostonglobe.com/2026/01/05/metro/ntsb-provincetown-fatal-plane-crash-cessna-172n/?s_campaign=sharetool_copypaste_view)** > > A Cessna 172N crashed at Provincetown Municipal Airport on Sunday around 3:15 p.m., officials said. (I have a subscription to The Globe, so I don’t know if this is paywalled for non-subscribers.) ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9167 "2026-01-05T20:58:55Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > The current transport Canada guidance: > > > 4.4 Cooling of batteries experiencing thermal runaway > > > > (1) Cooling battery cells in a PED to limit thermal propagation to adjacent cells is critical to extinguishing a high energy fire, whether prior to thermal runaway or after flames have begun to emit from a device. Current best practices often recommend cooling the cells by dousing the device with water or other non-alcoholic liquids. Dousing with liquid is intended to ensure that the device is saturated internally, which cools the battery cells. However, as more water-resistant devices enter the consumer market, cooling the device with liquids may become more challenging. > > From here: [Advisory Circular (AC) No. 700-065](https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/reference-centre/advisory-circulars/advisory-circular-ac-no-700-065#toc4_2) > > The FAA has similar guidance though I don’t have the reference handy. Ist it _at all_ possible to jettison an object (say, up to laptop size) from a modern airliner in flight? Would it be possible to add such a port? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9168 "2026-01-05T21:07:18Z")
And drop a blazing 1-2 pound device into a dry forest, farmer’s field, crowded football stadium, or school yard? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9169 "2026-01-05T21:08:03Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > Ist it _at all_ possible to jettison an object (say, up to laptop size) from a modern airliner in flight? Would it be possible to add such a port? I think ejecting a flaming object from an airliner would have rather severe liability issues! ---
**Author:** ![ThisOneGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@ThisOneGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisOneGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9170 "2026-01-05T21:14:07Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > And drop a blazing 1-2 pound device into a dry forest, farmer’s field, crowded football stadium, or school yard? Better than dropping a flaming 100,000+ lb airliner in one of those spots? At least that is my “small plane” thoughts on the matter. Would be tricky to add an ejection port to a pressurized plane, but I know it is done with those hurricane chasers. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9171 "2026-01-05T22:05:42Z")
> [@ThisOneGuy](#): > > Would be tricky to add an ejection port to a pressurized plane, but I know it is done with those hurricane chasers. - Hurricane hunters are not flying high enough (10,000’ / 3000m) to require pressurization - Hurricane hunters aren’t loading a flaming object that will burn them - Even if they wanted to build a pressure lock port in new planes it would be tough to impossible to retrofit existing ones given the hulls weren’t designed with that requirement in the first place. It would take years for the first plane to have it & decades for it to propagate thru fleets. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9172 "2026-01-05T22:17:57Z")
Smaller planes with accessible cargo compartments on the same deck (like, if you just have a door at the back in a CRJ the way the Challenger does) can in theory get _restricted operstions_ to allow that door to be opened in flight. This is done for search and rescue planes to be able to have a jumper or drop life rafts at least ostensibly per the regulatory guidelines. This involves depressurization of the aircraft, reducing altitude and airspeed, having all sorts of special procedures and pretty much _never_ done with passengers on board. I would not want to try to convince Transport Canada that this is a good idea for regular commercial operations. ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9173 "2026-01-05T22:36:32Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > What fire extinguisher agents have been shown to be effective for this type of fire? What is their toxicity profile like, compared to other agents? For anything you might discharge near people, you have to consider this issue and current guidance for cabin hand held extinguishers is built around Halon 1211 and alternatives like FE-36 and 2-BTP. There are no extinguishing agents that work on lithium based batteries. Time is the only thing that works - let it run it’s course somewhere safe. “Safe” of course being a difficult concept inside the cabin of a Part 121 or Part 135 aircraft. I have yet to see an extinguishing agent marketed for use on battery fires that isn’t akin to snake oil. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9174 "2026-01-05T22:43:21Z")
> [@commasense](#): > > so I don’t know if this is paywalled for non-subscribers It is paywalled. This seems to not be. > **[Pilot dead in Provincetown plane crash](https://www.bostonherald.com/2026/01/04/plane-crashes-at-provincetown-airport/)** > > A small airplane reportedly crashed Sunday afternoon in Provincetown, according to the municipal airport’s manager. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9175 "2026-01-05T22:44:20Z")
Sorry about that. There didn’t seem to be a gift link option. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9176 "2026-01-05T23:28:18Z")
Granted there are some minor 😉 storage issues, but hypothetically would liquid helium be good? It is VERY cold and VERY nonreactive. Liquid Argon isn’t quite as cold (boiling point 87K) but may be more practical (to be clear, I’m not suggesting either for aircraft use, or more than a thought experiment) FYI I did find this NIST paper on Argon (PDF) > **[R0000257.pdf](https://www.nist.gov/system/files/documents/el/fire_research/R0000257.pdf)** > > 176.62 KB Brian ---
**Author:** ![KCB615](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@KCB615](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KCB615)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9177 "2026-01-05T23:46:52Z")
Argon is my favorite extinguishing agent. I’ve had some complete oddball fire problems that argon was the only choice (titanium dust and/or powder being high on the list). One machine I did required several thousand cubic feet to reach the 90% concentration, then hold it for 25 minutes. Yep, local FD, don’t touch that thing for 25 minutes or it’s going to go boom. You can open the doors when the flashing light stops. I’d love to use it more, but the storage and health effects are pretty harsh. Argon wouldn’t work for batteries. The reaction is self-sustaining and self-heating, it’s all about the cells being insulted and having an inappropriate response. Like 3 year olds. Argon will displace oxygen, but thermal runaway doesn’t care about oxygen. It’s still going to pop cells and release electrolyte, which is a flammable gas. I’ve said it in other threads, and I’ll say it yet again - I really, really don’t like batteries. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9178 "2026-01-06T00:22:11Z")
I concur. I’m rather bothered by the number of posts on this board that do this. Please don’t just post a random YouTube link without telling us something about it. Preferably enough so that we don’t have to watch the video. > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Big day for Garmin yesterday. They had the first successful use of their autoland system in a retrofitted King Air. That it works is amazing, that it works in an aircraft built decades before the concept was even theorized is what really blows me away. Now THIS is the way to post a video. @Pork_Rind linked to a video AND added a link to a text only version of the story. Thanks very much for doing that. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9179 "2026-01-06T01:09:11Z")
> [@mnemosyne](#): > > I do know there’s research on this, I’m unfamiliar with the current state of knowledge and haven’t seen the needle move yet. All that’s been happening is removing Halon 1211 in favour of other agents for EASA compliance but none of that is built around fighting lithium fires. > > Definitely an industry challenge. These batteries aren’t going anywhere so solutions must be found. I was thinking about what containers aboard a jetliner have the volume in which to dunk a laptop. Some overhead bins could hold enough water to submerge a burning laptop. It would only work on the bins that open downwards and a slight re-design ($$$ I know) might be needed to tilt the bin such that it could hold enough water for a submerging. Just an idea. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9180 "2026-01-06T01:38:01Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > > [@mnemosyne](#): > > > > A toilet? > > In our current context, an airline lavatory toilet doesn’t have a liter of water standing in the bowl. In my experience, it’s empty until you flush and it all drops through the flap into a tank. > > Maybe that counts, but that also sounds a little scary… having a burning LiIon battery stuck halfway to the sewage tank. So why not design a chute that a laptop won’t get stuck in as it’s going down into the tank? Not likely to be something to be retrofitted into existing aircraft, but in terms of physics, a tank of liquid that can be vented to the outside seems like a great place to dump burning electronics in an emergency. Thinking even further outside the box, there’s a resource a jetliner has that the earthbound don’t: a 500-mph stream of cold fluid. That’s an excellent way to remove heat. Not sure how the engineering would work, but a heat-resistant device that contains the burning object, while directing a large rate of air through it to remove heat. Call it the “blowing out the candle” method. ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9181 "2026-01-06T02:29:19Z")
Areas that can’t easily be searched like a chute or storage box night become a problem for compliance with [14 CFR 25.795(c)](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-25/subpart-D/subject-group-ECFR9bfdfe36b332e4a/section-25.795). So that adds to the complexity of this. I’m not sure how well air can cool a lithium battery fire since it can’t really absorb as much heat as water. I’m also imagining just shooting flames down piping like a flamethrower! I guess if researchers are looking for something new to try, these are interesting concepts to begin with. Start with some bench tests and see if it works at all, then see how to fit it into an aircraft! I do love the creativity. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/9182 "2026-01-06T02:43:58Z")
Pitch it overboard. As somebody famously said: “It’s the only way to be sure.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=458) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=460)