# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/901 "2017-06-29T01:54:38Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > At work yesterday I heard my very first HondaJet [http://www.hondajet.com](http://www.hondajet.com) on the radio. We weren’t close enough to see it. I got to take a bunch of pictures of one a couple months ago. And then was immediately told to delete them.:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/902 "2017-06-29T05:26:50Z")
Okay, a thought struck me (but don’t worry, I’ll recover soon) – I should use this thread to ask for some aviation advise. Who’da thunk of doing that? Last weekend was my first experience at altitudes \> 12000’ MSL (and actually up to about 15000’), thus my first experience using oxygen. I’m [del]a little[/del] more than a little squicked out that there’s a communal cannula sitting in the glider, that most of us shared. (No, silly, not all at once.) I was advised that we need to use an Oxymizer cannula, but this all got planned just a day or two ahead of time, so I didn’t have time to get one, or even find where to get one. The Truckee glider FBO had ordinary cannulae for sale, but I didn’t get one of those. SO: I’m interested in general advice or opinions or experiences from the posters here about cannulae, and especially the [Oxymizer cannula](http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.php/component/attachments/download/121). (Link is a page from a PDF brochure.) There is a [“pendant” version](https://www.vitalitymedical.com/pdf/p-224-pendant-oxymizer-patient-instructions.pdf) that is connected farther down the plastic tube, and sits in front of your chest. Has anyone used this? I found a respiratory fibrosis message board where some patients wrote that it’s “noisy”, whatever that means. These are supposed to be replaced every three months (or was it three weeks?) – but that comes from sites that describes these as medical devices for people in respiratory therapy. I envision using it only a few hours at a time, maybe once or twice a month. Anyone know how long they are good for with that kind of usage? Is there a usable lifetime specified in hours-of-use anywhere? Anybody here have any other remarks about these? ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/903 "2017-06-29T16:50:22Z")
As long as the oxygen will flow, they will work fine. Years. Might be good to wash them once in a while, especially if you are using a communal one. They can last for years if not left in the sun or walked on other things of that nature. Beats sticking a straight tube in your mouth which we sometimes did when mapping with a plane that had no oxygen system and we had to use portable tanks. The ones linked to are no better than just a throwaway one like in a hospital. They might be more comfortable for long use but IMO, supply was much more important especially when throwing maps around, wrestling equipment and not just sitting there breathing easy enjoying the view. Actually, the cheap nasal ones with a re breather bag is better as it is less wasteful of the oxygen. Similar to [this.](http://www.medicalsupplydepot.com/Respiratory-Care/Oxygen-Masks-and-Cannulas/AirLife-Adult-High-Concentration-Oxygen-Masks.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/904 "2017-06-29T17:31:44Z")
For the third weekend this year, Trump [kills](https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2017/Jun/170624_TFR_Alert_Handout_-_NJ.pdf) flying in NJ. At least the [AP](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-jersey/articles/2017-06-29/small-new-jersey-airports-say-trump-visits-hurting-business) is publicizing it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/905 "2017-06-29T17:40:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > At work yesterday I heard my very first HondaJet [http://www.hondajet.com](http://www.hondajet.com) on the radio. We weren’t close enough to see it. What do you think about new players in the Aviation Industry? The trend in the last few decades has been the opposite, consolidation and specialization. While Honda certainly has the money and industrial base, do they have sufficient expertise and tribal knowledge to make it work? Or will they end up like Henry Kaiser’s ill-fated forays into automobile and aviation businesses? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/906 "2017-06-29T17:47:07Z")
**Senegoid** , the issue isn’t what comes out of them, but what goes into them, & what happens if that canula isn’t cleaned/dried out well. I have a [CamelBak](https://www.google.com/search?q=camelback+water+pack&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS598US598&source=lnms&tbm=isch); it’s similar in that you continue to use the tube from the bladder to your mouth. I only ever put my mouth on the bite tip. I rarely use it but pulled it out one day. ::_shudder_:: Disgusting! There was stuff on the inside of the tube that was _not_ water. I tossed it, bought a replacement tube & the long, thin, cleaner/scrub brush [tied up circle in bottom right](https://picclick.com/Camelbak-Cleaning-Kit-Hydration-System-Water-Bladder-Scrub-282415718692.html#&gid=1&pid=1) to clean my new one after each use. I also disconnect it from either end & hang it to dry for a day or two before puting it away. If the plane sits outside, uncovered, & you leave it on the seat, sunlight will probably do what’s necessary, while at the same time start to work on making the tubing brittle. If you wrap it up & put it in a pocket, or hangar the plane…not to be disgusting but one juicy exhale near the end of the first use could ruin it when you pull it out a few weeks later. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/907 "2017-06-29T18:41:50Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > As long as the oxygen will flow, they will work fine. Years. Might be good to wash them once in a while, especially if you are using a communal one. They can last for years if not left in the sun or walked on other things of that nature. > > […] > > The ones linked to are no better than just a throwaway one like in a hospital. > > […] > > Actually, the cheap nasal ones with a re breather bag is better as it is less wasteful of the oxygen. I’m definitely interested in getting my own cannula, as the idea of using a communal one is gross. Furthermore, having my own allows me to take better care of it – they come in a carrying case; I don’t have to leave it baking out in the sun in the glider; I can clean it myself or whatever else the instructions say I should do with it. Even medical inhalers (I have several) come with cleaning instructions! The Oxymizer cannulas I linked ARE supposedly better than plain old hospital cannulas. They conserve oxygen, and allegedly reduce oxygen consumption down to about 1/4 the amount of a regular cannula. I guess that is what a re-breather bag does too? They collect the oxygen flow while you exhale instead of letting it go to waste, and then when you inhale, you get that. It definitely conserves oxygen. The air flow regulator has two separate scales on it, one that applies when a regular cannula is used, and one that applies when an Oxymizer is used. The Oxymizer scale is about one fouth as long as the regular scale. Here are pics of one example: [http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4.jpg](http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4.jpg) Close-up: [http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4\_crop.jpg](http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4_crop.jpg) Interesting that there are aviation-specific regulators, distinct from medical usage regulators (which are what the vast majority of on-line references discuss). The medical regulators are denominated in liters/minute, I think; the aviation ones are denominated in 1000’s of feet of altitude. In one of the sources I saw, it cited research that the oxygen-conserving cannula reduces usage down to 0.75 liters/minute at 18000 ft., about one fourth of the regular cannula usage. So the question would be, how does it compare with a re-breather bag in usefulness and price and how long it lasts, etc.? > [@Spiderman](#): > > I have a [CamelBak](https://www.google.com/search?q=camelback+water+pack&rlz=1C1SAVI_enUS598US598&source=lnms&tbm=isch); it’s similar in that you continue to use the tube from the bladder to your mouth. I only ever put my mouth on the bite tip. I rarely use it but pulled it out one day. ::_shudder_:: Disgusting! As noted, if I have my own, I can take better care of it. Likewise, I suppose a CamelBak should be on my shopping list for some time in the Near Foreseeable Future – other pilots around here use them. And multi-hour glider flights at high altitude in hot weather can definitely dry you out. Many of us simply carry little bottled waters with us, but it’s awkward to drink out of those while flying the plane in a somewhat cramped cockpit. I’m told that we definitely need to carry water on the check-ride, as the DPE will be looking for that! Thanks for the advice, everyone! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/908 "2017-06-29T19:10:52Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > For the third weekend this year, Trump [kills](https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2017/Jun/170624_TFR_Alert_Handout_-_NJ.pdf) flying in NJ. At least the [AP](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-jersey/articles/2017-06-29/small-new-jersey-airports-say-trump-visits-hurting-business) is publicizing it. At least he’s away from Mar-a-Loco those weekends! He’s spent a great many weekends there since the inauguration, which nearly puts the entire nearby community of Palm Beach on lock-down when he’s there – including the local airport. Here’s a WaPo article on the financial devastation his visits wreak there: [‘He’s baaaack!’: Trump’s visits to Mar-a-Lago are stretching Palm Beach’s budget and locals’ patience](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hes-baaaack-trumps-visits-to-mar-a-lago-are-stretching-palm-beachs-budget-and-locals-patience/2017/03/19/9f87d3cc-0cc0-11e7-9d5a-a83e627dc120_story.html), Abby Phillip and Lori Rozsa, Washington Post, March 20, 2017. > [@](#): > > A local airport faces “devastation,” officials say, as a result of flight restrictions. Residents in neighborhoods nearby complain about the constant rumbling of commercial flights redirected over their homes. > > “They’ll start with the planes going over at 5:30 a.m.,” said Carol Canright, a West Palm Beach resident. “You have to turn up the volume to hear over it.” > > Local real estate agent Linda Cullen said flights take off over her house every three minutes when Trump is in town. > > “You would think that he would be open to some way of softening the impact,” she said. > > Meanwhile, a 15-minute drive from Mar-a-Lago, the president’s presence has all but shut down the small local airport. On a South Florida weekend like this past one, with clear skies, sunshine and a slight breeze, activity around the Lantana Airport should be at its busiest. > > “It’s a perfect day,” said Altaf Hussain, owner of Pilot Training Center, a flight school based at the airport. “This place should be buzzing.” > > It’s one of the nation’s busiest general-aviation airports for flight training, and winter weekends are the prime time for students to practice their skills in the air. These weekends are also popular with tourists renting flights to cruise above the nearby beaches, and for banner planes taking off with advertisements unfurling from their tails. More than two dozen businesses employing 400 people operate out of the airport. > > Instead of overseeing flights, Hussain sat outside his hangar Saturday, his five Cessna 172 fixed-wing planes parked nearby, grounded for the weekend by a “temporary flight restriction” order from the Secret Service — the highest level of restrictions aimed at pilots, used whenever the president is in town. > > For the first time Saturday, Hussain and other business owners at Lantana were told by the Secret Service that not only were they prohibited from flying, they couldn’t even start their engines for regular maintenance. > > So Hussain spent his morning putting together a barbecue grill. > > “The weekend flights are 33 percent of my business,” he said. “I’m surviving, but I don’t know how much longer. I lose $8,500 a weekend when we’re shut down. For a small guy like me, that’s a lot of money.” > > Jonathan Miller, who operates the airport, told the Associated Press last month that a helicopter company has decided to move elsewhere, costing Lantana $440,000 in annual rent and fuel sales. > > “It’s a ghost town,” Ryan Dougherty said as he worked on a plane at a Lantana hangar. Dougherty works at Florida Aero Paint, painting helicopters and other aircraft. “We can’t even get UPS deliveries. Every time this happens, it sets us back four days. Customers don’t want to wait that long.” > > Local and federal officials met recently for more than two hours with the Secret Service, which explained that the airport’s proximity to Mar-a-Lago meant that making special accommodations for Lantana was impossible. > > The situation could be a one-two financial punch for the county as well, which owns the airport but leases it to tenant businesses. Since the start of the year, the county’s profits from operating Lantana have grown smaller and smaller, according to Kerner, the county commissioner. And officials may be forced to aid the small businesses hit hardest by the flight restrictions. > > “It’s just devastation,” Kerner said. “I’m going to have to fight for those businesses in the county budget, and maybe rent rebates or some sort of subsidy that way.” > > Recently, residents have noticed a military-grade radar parked in an open lot on the airport’s grounds, one more sign of the permanence of their new normal. And that’s just the part of the article detailing the effect on the airport. The whole city is affected by security clamp-downs and the costs of having the police and sheriff’s department providing security for The Donald. [Security closures for Trump visits to Mar-a-Lago put small airport in tailspin](http://www.pressherald.com/2017/02/17/security-closures-near-mar-a-lago-put-small-airport-in-tailspin/), Terry Spence, Associated Press, February 17, 2017. > [@](#): > > LANTANA, Fla. — President Donald Trump wants small businesses to thrive, but his frequent Mar-a-Lago visits have flight schools and other companies at a nearby airport in a financial nosedive. > > The Secret Service closed Lantana Airport on Friday for the third straight weekend because of the president’s return to his Palm Beach resort, meaning its maintenance companies, a banner-flying business and another two dozen businesses are also shuttered, costing them thousands of dollars at the year’s busiest time. The banner-flying company says it has lost more than $40,000 in contracts already. > > […] > The airport and its 28 businesses have an economic impact of about $27 million annually and employ about 200 people full-time, many of them making about $30,000 a year. They don’t get paid when the airport is closed. > > Miller is already losing a helicopter company, which is moving rather than deal with the closures. That will cost him $440,000 in annual rent and fuel sales. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/909 "2017-06-29T19:47:05Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > I’m definitely interested in getting my own cannula, as the idea of using a communal one is gross. Furthermore, having my own allows me to take better care of it – they come in a carrying case; I don’t have to leave it baking out in the sun in the glider; I can clean it myself or whatever else the instructions say I should do with it. Even medical inhalers (I have several) come with cleaning instructions! My CamelBak point was just about tubing/canulas & how they can get really gross if reused & not cleaned/stored properly. Depending upon how close you live to the airport, leaving it baking in the sun in the glider for a few hours probably does wonders to dry out anything inside the tubing. Leaving it until you come back the next weekend would lead towards a shortened lifespan. Between my EMS & flying experiences (gas flights) I have never been around canulas that were stored & reused so I can’t tell you how long they’ll last / how much less they’ll last if kept in the sun. Inhalers are much easier to clean & dry than a multi-foot long, relatively narrow diameter canula. > [@Senegoid](#): > > The Oxymizer cannulas I linked ARE supposedly better than plain old hospital cannulas. They conserve oxygen, and allegedly reduce oxygen consumption down to about 1/4 the amount of a regular cannula. I guess that is what a re-breather bag does too? They collect the oxygen flow while you exhale instead of letting it go to waste, and then when you inhale, you get that. > > It definitely conserves oxygen. The air flow regulator has two separate scales on it, one that applies when a regular cannula is used, and one that applies when an Oxymizer is used. The Oxymizer scale is about one fouth as long as the regular scale. Here are pics of one example: > [http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4.jpg](http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4.jpg) > Close-up: [http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4\_crop.jpg](http://www.mhoxygen.com/images/stories/portable%20constant%20flow/MH4_crop.jpg) > > Interesting that there are aviation-specific regulators, distinct from medical usage regulators (which are what the vast majority of on-line references discuss). The medical regulators are denominated in liters/minute, I think; the aviation ones are denominated in 1000’s of feet of altitude. In one of the sources I saw, it cited research that the oxygen-conserving cannula reduces usage down to 0.75 liters/minute at 18000 ft., about one fourth of the regular cannula usage. > > So the question would be, how does it compare with a re-breather bag in usefulness and price and how long it lasts, etc.? Canulas are low-flow O[sub]2[/sub] delivery devices, 2-4, _maybe_ 6 lpm, whereas NRB are for hi-flow O[sub]2[/sub], 10-15 lpm. The bag is just extra O[sub]2[/sub] stored near where it is inhaled; there _should_ be enough coming thru the tube that you don’t need it filled. Aviation need supplemental O[sub]2[/sub] because of lower O[sub]2[/sub] in the atmosphere at higher altitudes, the higher you go, the more O[sub]2[/sub] you need (thank you, Captain Obvious). O[sub]2[/sub] canister weight & storage are a concern in an aircraft where they aren’t for a medical patient on the ground. Also, medical O[sub]2[/sub] regulators allow O[sub]2[/sub] out of the cylinder at a regular rate, even if you’re not inhaling. As I remember, the aviation ones it’s more of a ‘pull’ model than a ‘push’ model, meaning nothing comes out until you inhale. I don’t have a chart of how much you need at what altitude but I’m guessing you’d need to be pretty high up to warrant a NRB. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/910 "2017-06-29T19:52:45Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > At least he’s away from Mar-a-Loco those weekends! He’s spent a great many weekends there since the inauguration, which nearly puts the entire nearby community of Palm Beach on lock-down when he’s there – including the local airport. He’s doing the same thing to NJ in the summer that he’s doing to Palm Beach in the winter. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/911 "2017-06-29T20:25:48Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Canulas are low-flow O[sub]2[/sub] delivery devices, 2-4, _maybe_ 6 lpm, whereas NRB are for hi-flow O[sub]2[/sub], 10-15 lpm. The bag is just extra O[sub]2[/sub] stored near where it is inhaled; there _should_ be enough coming thru the tube that you don’t need it filled. > Aviation need supplemental O[sub]2[/sub] because of lower O[sub]2[/sub] in the atmosphere at higher altitudes, the higher you go, the more O[sub]2[/sub] you need (thank you, Captain Obvious). O[sub]2[/sub] canister weight & storage are a concern in an aircraft where they aren’t for a medical patient on the ground. Also, medical O[sub]2[/sub] regulators allow O[sub]2[/sub] out of the cylinder at a regular rate, even if you’re not inhaling. As I remember, the aviation ones it’s more of a ‘pull’ model than a ‘push’ model, meaning nothing comes out until you inhale. > I don’t have a chart of how much you need at what altitude but I’m guessing you’d need to be pretty high up to warrant a NRB. Sounds like you’d need to be in High Earth Orbit to warrant this NRB of which you speak. As I noted above, one on-line brochure I saw mentioned that aviation only requires 0.75 lpm (with Oxymizer) up to 18000 ft. That’s nowhere near the medical usage of 2-4 or maybe 6 let alone 10-15 lpm. Our gliders have the oxygen bottle and all the plumbing in them, so it’s all figured into the W&B calculations. I just found [this Pilots of America](https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/portable-oxygen-systems.86636/) message board thread, in which they discuss putting together your own DIY oxygen system. Those folks, at least a few of whom seem to know what they’re talking about, point out that aviation systems are quite different from medical systems in many ways – even down to the fittings on the bottles. It’s not something I need to deal with, since our gliders are already equipped. At the minimum, all I really need to do is buy the Oxymizer cannula on-line. But I’m also interested in knowing as much as I might need to know about how they work, and aviation oxygen systems in general. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/912 "2017-07-01T00:52:07Z")
A Cessna 310 [crashed](http://ktla.com/2017/06/30/small-plane-lands-on-405-freeway-near-john-wayne-airport/) on the 405 this morning, just short of SNA. The first reports I heard said the airplane was just taking off, but the video shows it on approach. I’m _guessing_ that the pilot lost his starboard engine on takeoff, managed to keep it in the air around the pattern, and ran out of altitude and options on the turn to final. The tower advised him his gear appeared to be up, and the pilot advised that he was keeping them up as long as possible so he could try to maintain his altitude. (Undercarriages are draggy.) Both occupants survived the crash, and were pulled out of the wreckage by an off-duty firefighter whose car they’d clipped. I don’t know the extent of their injuries. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/913 "2017-07-01T01:52:11Z")
For the 99% case, SNA lands south towards the ocean. Very, very rarely do they operate the airport going the other way. Assuming that common case, anyone impacting on/in the 405 would be on short final. There are lots of ways to screw up an engine out pattern in a light twin. Trying to stay too close to the runway and ending up with an overly tight turn to base or final is sure one of them. That burns more energy than your one engine produces. SNA does not leave the pilot very many attractive options for a low altitude engine failure. You can make a 90 degree turn and land on/in a freeway, fly straight ahead a couple miles and ditch in an estuary, or fly into houses and low-rise commercial developments cheek-by-jowl. That’s pretty much it. The desire to bring the airplane back to an airport versus picking one of the other likely-total-writeoff options has killed more than one aviator at that or other similar suburban airfields. These guys were fortunate to get away as lightly as they seem to have done. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/914 "2017-07-01T16:08:15Z")
He lost one engine in a plane that will climb on one engine. unless there are other issues (which there easily could have been) the prudent thing to do would be to give yourself some working altitude. I suppose we’ll hear the whole story down the line. This is a good time to think about what we can do do mitigate emergencies. I like to think things through ahead of time to reduce the workload. If I’m at an airport with no traffic I like to climb out in a landing pattern and spiral up to a point where I have more options. If I’m running low on fuel I run the secondary tank dry so all my fuel is in primary tank. If I’m flying at night I go as high as possible even if it means I take a wind penalty. At night I cycle through the closest airports and look for the beacons even though the GPS will steer me to within inches of it. It gives me a feeling of being in control that I think will help in an emergency. I look for malls and other well lit hard surfaces. Stuff like that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/915 "2017-07-01T17:37:52Z")
Look at [this photo](https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_26/2058216/170630-orange-county-crash-ac-821p_766906d38004646ce08e596821949d4b.nbcnews-fp-1200-800.jpg). One blade looks like it’s backwards. Only the tip is curled. The other visible blade looks like it’s feathered, but it’s also curved so it must have been turning on touchdown. I wonder if the pilot forgot to feather the dead prop? Or, my not being a crash investigator, maybe he did feather it and there’s another reason for the curved blade. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2017, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/916 "2017-07-01T19:09:42Z")
Yeah, that right prop might tell a surprising story. Sounds like a rented plane. Pilots log book might also be real interesting for what it does not have in it. Good catch on the prop picture. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/917 "2017-07-02T01:26:37Z")
Or maybe he pulled the knob properly and the prop didn’t respond, or didn’t respond fully. It only has to be ticking over very slowly for each blade to tap the ground just prior to touchdown. Then once the aircraft is well below prop arc altitude, the rotation stops promptly, utterly wrecking 2 blades and leaving one damaged. That’s a pretty typical pattern. If the failed prop was fully unfeathered I’d expect to see all three pretty well bent. To be sure the ones on the bottom will be pretzels compared to the top one. But I’d expect to see a lot more than just tip curling if that was the case. I’d expect to see it bent aft about 90 degrees at about 1/2 the blade length. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/918 "2017-07-05T17:51:37Z")
There’s an adage in aviation as it regards the compromises of design, and I want to be certain of the exact wording. I _think_ it’s ‘Speed, payload, economy. You may choose two.’ That is, if you want speed, you need to reduce the economy (higher operating costs) or reduce the payload (smaller, more efficient airframe). If you want economy, you’re not going to go very fast but you can more-or-less keep the payload. If you want a payload, you’ll need more power, or sacrifice speed. But do I have those parameters correct? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/919 "2017-07-05T18:20:58Z")
The term of art is [Trilemma - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma). As the article says, there are plenty of formulations on the theme. I’m not sure there’s exactly one that’s commonly applied to aviation. I agree that speed / payload / economy would be a pretty good first guess. Almost anything else is going to be a special case of one of those major areas. Engineering reality of course is the tradeoff is across dozens of variables, not three: speed, altitude, manueverablility, range, payload, comfort, takeoff/landing performance, noise, cost to make and sell, cost to operate, cost to maintain, passenger vs cargo capacity, stealth or not, reliability, durability, weather tolerance, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/920 "2017-07-05T18:49:03Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The term of art is [Trilemma - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilemma). As the article says, there are plenty of formulations on the theme. Thanks. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Engineering reality of course is the tradeoff is across dozens of variables, not three: speed, altitude, manueverablility, range, payload, comfort, takeoff/landing performance, noise, cost to make and sell, cost to operate, cost to maintain, passenger vs cargo capacity, stealth or not, reliability, durability, weather tolerance, etc., etc. Of course. But many of those can be subsets of the three I mentioned. For example, range relates to economy (lower fuel consumption) and payload (larger tanks). Comfort relates to payload, as a greater payload can mean bigger seats and such, at the expense of speed. (I’m thinking of the Beechcraft Musketeer or the Rockwell 112/114, for example.) And so on. In terms of GA, stealth, for example, isn’t a strong concern. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=47)