# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/921 "2017-07-05T20:30:23Z")
Agreed. Once you stabilize your broad mission, your level of tech, and your capital budget, then the high level trade space for airplanes pretty well devolves into speed, payload, and operating cost. Everything else is details. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/922 "2017-07-05T21:03:07Z")
This is why I think the Cessna 172 is the best compromise in General Aviation. (NB: Almost all of my hours are in Skyhawks, so I’m biased.) I think the PA-28-150 is in there too. Neither one carries a spectacular payload, neither is very fast, and it would be nice if they had longer legs. But they have a happy balance of speed (fast enough), payload (big enough), and range (far enough). I’ve heard some people say that the Skylane is the best personal airplane. My dad had a Skyhawk and a Skylane at the same time. He loved the 182. But I think the operating costs are a little too high for a ‘perfect balance’. (Nevertheless, it’s fast and you can fill the seats. And dad’s had long-range tanks.) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/923 "2017-07-05T21:17:55Z")
TLTE: Almost all of my _fixed-wing_ hours are in Skyhawks. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/924 "2017-07-06T02:50:52Z")
Most GA, not all GA. Paint and a quiet engine, prop and air-frame can be tremendous advantages in many cases. All square in the ‘stealth’ folder ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/925 "2017-07-08T14:54:40Z")
[1969 Beechcraft _Discover Flying_ promotional film](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qltgKw9TxFU). It’s described as a ‘promotional video’ by the person who posted it, but it’s more of an ‘educational film’. A promotional film should serve to get people excited about the topic. This one’s like sitting in a classroom when you’d rather be out flying. I think Cessna did a better job with [_Flying Fun_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbZuIkQbLos), an introduction to aerobatic flying. It’s a bit educational, but it makes me want to learn basic aerobatics. ETA: [1998 Skyhawk and Skylane](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnuYLRi2Ne8) promo/very long commercial. . ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/926 "2017-07-08T16:57:07Z")
In clicking thru the link in **Johnny L.A.**'s [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=830472) about the alligator dinner delivery service, I saw a link to another current aviation story. Someone [leaked](http://nypost.com/2017/07/06/dramatic-video-of-deadly-plane-crash-mysteriously-surfaces/) the full (47 min) SFO Tower Cam footage of the Asiana flight 214 crash 4 years ago; complete with “Don’t distribute” watermarked onto it. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/927 "2017-07-10T02:46:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I think Cessna did a better job with [_Flying Fun_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbZuIkQbLos), an introduction to aerobatic flying. It’s a bit educational, but it makes me want to learn basic aerobatics. Hey, me gotta check that out! I’ve got a longer-term fantasy (which, at my age and financial status is likely to remain just a fantasy) of getting into sailplane aerobatics. There are some great sailplane aerobatic YouTube videos. Johan Gustaffson: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxNWp5w91Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxNWp5w91Q) Luca Bertossio: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImW8Kydqtc4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImW8Kydqtc4) According to Luca Bertossio’s Wikipedia page, he teaches (or has taught) at a glider school just a few hours drive from where I live! I’ll bet he charges $500 per hour! As for some shorter-term fantasies, I’m going to Truckee again tomorrow (Monday) for a lesson with one of my local instructors on Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/928 "2017-07-10T09:51:00Z")
Famous instructors are almost always grossly overrated. They’re able to charge what they do because of celebrity not skill. Assuming you’re also a proficient powerplane pilot you can get the basics of loops and rolls and rate/radius/G training in 3-5 sessions in something like a Citabria fairly cheap. Then find somebody ordinary to get you checked out on the sailplane-specific differences. Either way it sounds like fun; I’ve done a tiny amount of sailplaning eons ago & always wanted to go back. Including sailplane aerobatics. That’s one of my win-the-lottery activities. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/929 "2017-07-12T07:01:46Z")
Well, I did that. Went to Truckee Monday, camped that night (slept horribly badly – my body plan just does not conform to air mattresses and sleeping bags), flew with instructor on Tuesday (today). The flight almost turned into a dud right off, as we didn’t find any lift immediately and were beginning to think of landing after only about 15 minutes. Then we suddenly ran smack into a monster thermal, which quickly took us high enough that we could go exploring at greater distances for more thermals. We ended up flying for just over 2 hours mostly at 10000 to 12000 ft MSG (4000 to 6000 above airport level, which isn’t the same as AGL as we spent a lot of that time over surrounding mountains, some of them still snow-topped, and in full view of Lake Tahoe. As someone ( **LSLGuy**?) wrote up-thread, flying as it was meant to be done! I had the presence of mind to go buy a box of pre-packaged alcohol swabs to disinfect the cannula with. Somebody else (one of the other pilots I think) did the same! GMTA! For no particularly obvious reason, the chief flight instructor of another soaring school, about an hour drive in the _other_ direction from where I live, showed up at Truckee today and pretty much just hung around all day and helped a little bit with the ground crew. (I’ve flown with him a few times and he’s very good at it.) We talked about aerobatic soaring – he teaches it at his school. Someday, I fantasize, I’ll want to take him up on that! The staff claims that there have been TWO incidents this season of a bear coming into the campground and rummaging around. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/930 "2017-07-12T10:37:55Z")
Look at the bright side. Unlike soaring camping in the southwest, you don’t have to shake out your shoes in the mornings. Unlike scorpions, bears are too big to hide in your shoes. 🙂 Take that other instructor up on at least an aerobatic intro. The truth is that aerobatics looks smooth and graceful from the outside and feels like a bunch of weightlifting from the inside. That will either appeal to you, or it won’t. In my life I’ve tried to taste my various wild ideas early, rather than after spending a few months or years building up my internal fantasy about how cool it’ll be. And before buying a host of prerequisite starter tools, books, accessories, etc. Sometimes that taste kindled a lifelong enthusiasm. And sometimes it saved me a lot of fantasy time … and dollars. Either way, keep it up. It’s really fun to read about your adventures. I get to see Tahoe now and again from altitude, and I’ve been there on the ground a couple times. To be able to spend hours hanging around in space enjoying the scenery and sky must be a real treat. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/931 "2017-07-12T11:05:56Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Look at the bright side. Unlike soaring camping in the southwest, you don’t have to shake out your shoes in the mornings. Unlike scorpions, bears are too big to hide in your shoes. 🙂 [offtopic]We’ve had [one of these](http://www.canberratimes.com.au/content/dam/images/3/4/a/2/9/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.34adn.png/1394121600000.jpg) living in our garage for the last few months. I find that the one thing worse than having one of those in you garage, is knowing you have on in your garage but not knowing where it is. “Hmm, where’s the spider today? In my shoes? Nope. In my cycling helmet? Nope? In my hat? Nope. Under the car door handle? Nope.” It has been missing now for about a week. I don’t know if it has left the garage for good, or if it’s just hiding somewhere. My youngest daughter (2) is a bit sad about it, she liked finding the spider and talking to it. Now she goes in the garage and says “'pider? … Gone :(”[/offtopic] > [@](#): > > Take that other instructor up on at least an aerobatic intro. The truth is that aerobatics looks smooth and graceful from the outside and feels like a bunch of weightlifting from the inside. That will either appeal to you, or it won’t. Definitely, though I think if you get the right pilot aerobatics can be smooth and progressive from the inside as well. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve. Is it meant to feel nice, look good, or is it just a means of getting on to the bad guy’s tail ;)? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/932 "2017-07-12T13:17:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > My youngest daughter (2) is a bit sad about it, she liked finding the spider and talking to it. Now she goes in the garage and says “'pider? … Gone :(”[/offtopic] What a _wonderful_ little girl! 😉 Another weekend on the [ground](http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_7_8859.html). Thanks, Trump. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/933 "2017-07-12T13:53:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Unlike scorpions, bears are too big to hide in your shoes. 🙂 They tend to go bear-foot. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/934 "2017-07-12T18:05:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > They tend to go bear-foot. ::: groan ::::: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/935 "2017-07-13T00:22:48Z")
Why the big paws/pause? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/936 "2017-07-13T19:53:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Either way, **keep it up**. It’s really fun to read about your adventures. Popular bumper sticker around glider ports from the 1970’s: > [@](#): > > **Glider pilots keep it up longer.** > [@](#): > > I get to see Tahoe now and again from altitude, and I’ve been there on the ground a couple times. **To be able to spend hours hanging around in space enjoying the scenery and sky must be a real treat.** Roger that! No kidding! It’s more than just “hanging around” too. It’s not like flying your Cessna Skylane or 747 over Tahoe on your way to Denver where you just set the auto-pilot and enjoy the view. Soaring is a very active sport, with near-constant maneuvering to find lift, and lots of time spent circling in 45° (±) banks with frequent adjustments to stay centered, plus maintaining precision pitch, airspeed, and rudder coordination. (Disclaimer: Them’s all skillz I’m still working on!) It’s the scenery AND the flying! What with that, plus getting the glider all ready to fly and all parked and tied down afterward (plus helping the other pilots the day before) and running wing-tip, etc. – not to mention the 4-hour drive each way – I come home from these trips thoroughly exhausted and stiff and sore and achy and I sleep pretty much the entire day or two afterward – You can tell I must have had a good time! There were two fires working not far away, with a TFR in effect. We couldn’t go where the best lift usually is found, but we found lift in other directions. I-80 was closed east of Truckee. So on the way home, on I-80 westbound down the mountain toward Sacramento, the road was nearly deserted. > [@Senegoid](#): > > . . . mostly at 10000 to 12000 ft **MSG** (4000 to 6000 above airport level, which isn’t the same as AGL . . . To clarify that – I always ask for my flights without MSG, but I guess I forget this time. But! I had extra alcohol swabs in my pocket so I was able to neutralize the MSG and it all worked out fine. 🙂 > [@Senegoid](#): > > As someone ( **LSLGuy**?) wrote up-thread, flying as it was meant to be done! Pedantic nerd that I am, I can’t let this accidental mis-attribution go uncorrected. It was **Richard Pearse** who wrote that: > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > > [@Senegoid](#): > > > > Exsqueeze me if I babble semi-incoherently and interminably here – the adrenalin hasn’t fully worn off yet! > > Feel free to babble! Sounds you had a great time. Flying as it should be. Clearly though, **LSLGuy** , _et al._ agree! > [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Definitely, though I think if you get the right pilot aerobatics can be smooth and progressive from the inside as well. **It all depends on what you are trying to achieve.** Is it meant to feel nice, look good, or is it just a means of getting on to the bad guy’s tail ;)? “It’s the adrenalin, [del]stu…[/del]!” 🙂 I’m really looking at the challenge of developing precision flying skill here (hey, I’m still working on controlling pitch and coordination. . .), and some acro looks like it might be a real gas, when I’m ready for that. But mainly, the adrenalin. [I’m going to end being a die-hard whacked out adrenalin junkie yet!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20247325) Can you tell? [See also.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20195008#post20195008) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/937 "2017-07-13T20:25:22Z")
Wow. Who knew they still made [BD-4s](http://www.bedecorp.com/bd-4c.html)? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/938 "2017-07-13T22:12:19Z")
@ **Johnny** : Some roaches are hard to kill. Bravo **Senegoid**. Your bubbling enthusiasm takes me back a lot of years. Go full bore at something exhilarating for a full day then sleep two to make up. A great way of life. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/939 "2017-07-14T17:05:33Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > @ **Johnny** : Some roaches are hard to kill. My dad lost a lot of money to Jim Bede because the paid-for engine and prop shaft were never delivered. Also, dad asked Bede (personally) about putting a jet engine in the BD-5 he was building, as a friend had access to one. Bede told him it couldn’t be done; no way, no how. And then Bede brought out the BD-5J. So I personally think Bede behaved unethically. But I’ve never heard anything bad about the BD-4. It seems like a reasonable competitor to the Van’s airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/940 "2017-07-14T18:31:52Z")
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