# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1041 "2017-10-04T17:59:42Z")
I think that page got it’s info from a really starving salesman. Flown them both and side by side. Power setting set the same, 172RG out climbs, out runs the 177. What the gauges say is meaningless. Did the same with a 65 Money Ex and a 65 Comanche B. All the hype about the Money just was not so. Dad had them both at the same time. In the 172 vs 177, the 172 RG & the 177 were not ours but I was on both sides there also. Did a lot of my early Instrument basic work in a 177. Dad had many different 172’s over they years. I could always make the 1956 model, he had first, do things that the other could not do. Was not the fastest though. Off airport, it was by far superior. I published nothing and can’t prove it actually happened. But if you wanna get the 2 planes , I’ll show you. Your dime of course. I can’t even provide fuel for a paper airplane anymore. :::: grump :::: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1042 "2017-10-04T18:21:16Z")
I’ve only been in a 177RG once, as 12- or 13-year-old in the right seat from San Diego to Eureka and back. I did fly left-seat in dad’s Skylane, but it was his ‘baby’ and I never flew it solo. The numbers for the 172 are correct. (Granted, dad’s Skyhawk had a cruise prop.) When you say the 172RG outruns the 177, do you mean the 177A or 177B? Or do you mean the 177RG? **ElvisL1ves** wasn’t clear if he meant the Cardinal RG or the Cardinal wasn’t faster than a straight-leg 172. (He said ‘Skyhawk’, and the 172RG was the Cutlass.) To be clear, I’m saying the 177RG is faster than a Skyhawk, and a little faster than a non-retractable Skylane. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1043 "2017-10-10T04:35:30Z")
On Sat night, eight 2-person teams took off from Balloon Fiesta Park in ABQ, NM in (H) gas balloons to start the 22nd America’s Challenge Gas Balloon Race. Seven of the eight went at least 1000 miles! As of right now, Monday night, five are still flying, & three of them are over Canada, with a fourth one looking at the south side of Lake Erie! The lead balloon is currently doing 81mph!!! Good luck to their chase crew. All will either land tomorrow morning or late afternoon. That’s quite long enough to be in a roughly 3’ x 5’ open basket with someone else. You can track the race [here](http://www.balloonfiesta.com/gas-balloons/gas-tracking). ( **Hint:** click on the three horizontal lines in the top left to toggle between map & chart.) Altitude is intentionally **not** listed. I’ve crewed for a couple of these in the past so feel free to ask any questions you may have about gas balloons. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1044 "2017-10-10T11:45:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > When you say the 172RG outruns the 177, do you mean the 177A or 177B? Or do you mean the 177RG? **ElvisL1ves** wasn’t clear if he meant the Cardinal RG or the Cardinal wasn’t faster than a straight-leg 172. (He said ‘Skyhawk’, and the 172RG was the Cutlass.) To be clear, I’m saying the 177RG is faster than a Skyhawk, and a little faster than a non-retractable Skylane. The 177A was underpowered (160HP Lyc, IIRC). With the 180, the 177B was all right. Or so I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1045 "2017-10-10T15:02:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The 177A was underpowered (160HP Lyc, IIRC). With the 180, the 177B was all right. Or so I understand. Yes, from what I’ve read the 177A was a dog. But the Cardinal I’m talking about is the 177RG, which had a 200 hp powerplant. ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1046 "2017-10-10T18:51:50Z")
Its a good thing the winners of that balloon race set down where they did. Talk about wilderness if they’d kept going! Oops. Spoke too soon. it looks like there’s one still up. Going for Newfoundland? ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1047 "2017-10-10T19:17:42Z")
BTW, what are the typical altitudes flown by these guys (and girls)? Do they take supplemental O2? ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2017, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1048 "2017-10-10T23:08:49Z")
> [@MikeF](#): > > BTW, what are the typical altitudes flown by these guys (and girls)? Do they take supplemental O2? [Here is a link](http://www.balloonfiesta.com/) to the Balloon Fiesta website. If you click on the “Gas Balloons” tab at the top you can get all kinds of info- for example, the [Gas Ballooning FAQs link](http://www.balloonfiesta.com/gas-balloons/gas-ballooning-faqs) says they can rise to several thousand feet. Here is a link to the [America’s Challenge Rules](http://www.balloonfiesta.com/uploads/GeneralPDFs/22nd%20Americas%20Challenge%20Rules%20FINAL.pdf) (PDF) that says “Every balloon should be equipped with sufficient oxygen and appropriate distribution system to be used at altitudes greater than 12,500 feet MSL”, so they recommend supplemental oxygen but don’t require it. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1049 "2017-10-11T01:22:07Z")
> [@Bumbershoot](#): > > Here is a link to the [America’s Challenge Rules](http://www.balloonfiesta.com/uploads/GeneralPDFs/22nd%20Americas%20Challenge%20Rules%20FINAL.pdf) (PDF) that says “Every balloon should be equipped with sufficient oxygen and appropriate distribution system to be used at altitudes greater than 12,500 feet MSL”, so they recommend supplemental oxygen but don’t require it. But that must mean, I suppose, that while having O2 aboard is optional, if you don’t have it, then flight above 12,500 (or maybe 14,000) is forbidden, yes? The rule I know (for airplanes and gliders, but it must be the same for other aircraft): Above 12,500 feet MSL O2 is _required_ after 30 minutes. Above 14,000 feet MSL, O2 is _required immediately_. Is it common for balloons to get anywhere near that high? Gliders do quite routinely. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1050 "2017-10-11T11:35:57Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > But that must mean, I suppose, that while having O2 aboard is optional, if you don’t have it, then flight above 12,500 (or maybe 14,000) is forbidden, yes? > > The rule I know (for airplanes and gliders, but it must be the same for other aircraft): Above 12,500 feet MSL O2 is _required_ after 30 minutes. Above 14,000 feet MSL, O2 is _required immediately_. > > Is it common for balloons to get anywhere near that high? Gliders do quite routinely. I don’t know much about ballooning, but I believe that gas balloons typically go higher than hot-air balloons because they are often flown in competitive events for distance and/or duration, so they want to catch wind currents that will carry them farther. But they don’t want to go too high since they would have to carry supplemental O2 (extra weight) and because it gets cold up there so they would need more warm clothing. The following is also from the America’s Challenge Rules that I linked to above: > [@](#): > > **Flight Instruments** > > Each balloon must carry at least the following equipment: > a) Altimeter > b) Variometer > c) Backup barograph or other altitude recording device (e.g. GPS, etc.) Altitude recording GPS units must record data points every 10 minutes or less > d) 720 channel VHF radio > e) Aircraft strobe light > f) Beam light for night landing > g) Electronic Navigational Aid or GPS > h) Transponder with Mode C and 4096 codes or Mode S Transponder > i) Emergency Locator Transmitter: (406 MHz) > > Additionally, each balloon will carry a GPS logger/tracking device provided by the Organizer. > > There is no restriction in the use of navigation aids and flight control instruments. From the Gas Ballooning FAQs: > [@](#): > > They carry many things, but they try to keep them as light as possible… > Pilots usually carry survival gear, in case they have to make an emergency landing, but not parachutes. They also carry easy-to-eat food, warm clothes, maps, passports, and a Porta Potty-type bathroom device. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2017, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1051 "2017-10-11T22:57:46Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Is it common for balloons to get anywhere near that high? Gliders do quite routinely. Hot air balloons, no; that’s uncommon. Gas balloons, yes it’s common. Especially leaving from ABQ, where the Sandia Mountains (almost 11,000’ + an altitude buffer to prevent getting caught in the rollers on the far side) sometimes get crossed in the first hour of flight. In years when the winds take them north, over the Rockies, they can get up into the mid-teens in terms of elevation. In general, there will be faster winds at higher elevations; however, you need O[sub]2[/sub] & to lose more ballast to get up there, which could ultimately end up in a shorter duration (& therefore, distance) flight when those run out. > [@Bumbershoot](#): > > The following is also from the America’s Challenge Rules that I linked to above: You cut your paste off one line too soon: > [@Flight Instruments](#): > > **Chapter 4 Instruments and Equipment > 4.1 Flight Instruments** > Each balloon must carry at least the following equipment: > a) Altimeter > b) Variometer > c) Backup barograph or other altitude recording device (e.g. GPS, etc.) > Altitude recording GPS units must record data points every 10 minutes or > less > d) 720 channel VHF radio > e) Aircraft strobe light > f) Beam light for night landing > g) Electronic Navigational Aid or GPS > h) Transponder with Mode C and 4096 codes or Mode S Transponder > i) Emergency Locator Transmitter: (406 MHz) > Additionally, each balloon will carry a GPS logger/tracking device provided by the > Organizer. > There is no restriction in the use of navigation aids and flight control instruments. **Every balloon should be equipped with sufficient oxygen and appropriate distribution system to be used at altitudes greater than 12,500 feet MSL.** O[sub]2[/sub] is required & part of the list that officials confirm you have before you are allowed to go to the launch platform. They have ridiculously expensive regulators which have some type of (barometric?) altimeter & only give you enough supplemental O[sub]2[/sub] for the altitude that you’re at to save on weight/space of O[sub]2[/sub] bottles needing to be carried. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1052 "2017-10-12T00:44:43Z")
Thanks for that clarification, **Spiderman.** I assumed the second sentence, regarding supplemental oxygen (blue in your post) was optional because it came after the alphabetized list of required equipment. Also, the phrase “should be” was a little unclear (to me, anyway). That’s why I included the sentence in post #1048 but not in post #1050. I was planning to drive over and catch the launch again this year but when I checked the schedule on Sunday morning I discovered that they launched on Saturday evening! Oh well, I’ll know better next year. I was happy to see that two teams traveled more than 2,100 miles, both surpassing the previous record. And as you mentioned, 7 out of 8 made it more than 1,000 miles. Very impressive! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1053 "2017-10-12T01:55:46Z")
That sentence says “should” not “must” or “shall”. I’d interpret the O2 as being a recommendation only. ---
**Author:** ![Bumbershoot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bumbershoot/32/3428_2.png) [@Bumbershoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bumbershoot)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2017, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1054 "2017-10-12T02:05:30Z")
I’m glad I’m not the only one who took it that way! Edit: I don’t doubt that **Spiderman** is correct, I just think the sentence was not clearly worded. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1055 "2017-10-13T00:10:23Z")
question for US based airline pilots. what is involved in a first class medical? I’ve known of a fair number of pilots who died from a heart attack. Is there something lacking in the physicals? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1056 "2017-10-13T00:50:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > question for US based airline pilots. what is involved in a first class medical? I’ve known of a fair number of pilots who died from a heart attack. Is there something lacking in the physicals? I’m not an AME, but I am the subject of a Class I every six months. From my POV, the only difference is I get an EKG every other time. I really don’t know if there’s a different medical standard for the different classes, or if the difference is merely how often they are required. I used to have a flight student who was both an AME and a cardiologist. When I asked him how reliable the Class I medical is as an actual examination, he said he was skeptical. I persisted and asked if it would be likely to catch an actual heart problem. His response: “You’d have to be having a heart attack during the examination.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1057 "2017-10-13T19:50:26Z")
The actual FAA standard for the heart part of the exam is here: [https://www.faa.gov/about/office\_org/headquarters\_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app\_process/exam\_tech/item36/](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item36/) There’s more higher level info starting here [Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners | Federal Aviation Administration](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/) This page lists specific disease and how the FAA wants them examined and handled. [Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners | Federal Aviation Administration](https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/) If you asked the MDs here on the 'Dope they’d tell you that in roughly 25% of cases the first symptom of coronary artery disease is sudden death. The Feds’ screening program is intended to detect problems early enough to intervene medically or prevent the pilot from flying if there’s no good/safe/reliable intervention. With some awareness that if they grounded everybody whose blood pressure wasn’t 120/72 they’d ground almost everybody over 55 to negligible incremental contribution to actual safety. The exams do detect and force treatment for significant high blood pressure and for significant EKG abnormalities. There’s not yet an effective screen for the rest. By “effective” we mean both that it detects enough real problems and that it also doesn’t too many detect false problems. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1058 "2017-11-14T06:51:04Z")
Do any of you aviation types happen to know if a Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee has a constant speed prop? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1059 "2017-11-14T11:47:43Z")
The -180 is fixed pitch. The engine controls came in two versions; early airplanes had push/pull throttle & mixture controls while the later ones had quadrant style levers. Old style: [Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee C - Untitled | Aviation Photo #0711514 | Airliners.net](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Piper-PA-28-180-Cherokee-C/711514) New style: [Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee Archer - Untitled | Aviation Photo #1188404 | Airliners.net](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Piper-PA-28-180-Cherokee-Archer/1188404). The larger engine versions of PA-28 & PA-28R are constant speed. Here’s a pic of a PA-28-235 both old and new style engine controls for comparison: Old: [Piper PA-28-235 Cherokee B - Untitled | Aviation Photo #0731843 | Airliners.net](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Piper-PA-28-235-Cherokee-B/731843) New: [Piper PA-28-235 Cherokee D - Untitled | Aviation Photo #0848576 | Airliners.net](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/Piper-PA-28-235-Cherokee-D/848576) The absence of a prop control knob are obvious on the -180. I do not know whether someone somewhere has done an STC to change the prop or drop in a different engine. Stranger things have happened to 50 year old airplanes. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1060 "2017-11-14T13:22:40Z")
Thanks. I don’t have much time in low wing Pipers and couldn’t remember the layout of that one. Of course a photo search could’ve answered the question :smack:. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=54)