# The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other) (Part 1) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499 "2011-10-23T02:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 69
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1361 "2020-08-23T14:44:02Z")
ETA: Normally helos try to maintain a constant fairly low rotor RPM. Each type has its own favorite RPM, but across all helos a general range might be 250-450 RPM. It’s only when manuevering aggressively that the speed governing can’t keep up perfectly with the rapidly changing power demands and we see the changing artifacts. There’s another Hind vid I once saw on YouTube but could not find today. That vid is freakier! The rotor is almost stock still for most of the demo. Clearly that’s strobing. Although that didn’t stop some morons in the comments from claiming the Sovs had built a helo that didn’t need to rotate toe rotor in order to fly. Idjits! ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1362 "2020-08-23T14:52:34Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > … > > > An aircraft renter with a distillery-produced sanitizer meant well, but improper disinfecting techniques damaged the instrument panels of two Cessna 172s at Florida’s [Atlas Aviation](https://atlasaviation.com/) and required costly repairs… > > > > “It affected the factory paint and to fix it, we need to completely remove every radio, all avionics, the switches, and other items, and resurface the panels,” said chief pilot Dave Presnell. We have been instructed to absolutely positively not use anything but the provided materials to clean the cockpits. For much the same reason. A lot of damage happened early on from guys using any/everything to sanitize the cockpit touchpoints. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1363 "2020-08-23T14:53:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Here’s another example, in which the blades appear to be completely stopped: That’s it. I was having trouble refreshing when I wrote my post just above so I hadn’t seen yours. Sorry to inject confusion into the sequence of posts. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1364 "2020-08-23T16:17:04Z")
The strobe effect gets even weirder. Perhaps you’ve all seen videos showing propellers bent into weird shapes. That happens because the video camera chip doesn’t snap an entire frame at one instant. Rather, it scans with a scan line that moves across the face of the chip; this is called “rolling shutter”. ETA: So when a moving object is moving at a speed roughly comparable to the speed of the scan, the picture is continually changing even as it’s being recorded, producing those distortions. Here is a video that explains this in detail, with examples from copy machine scanners, twisted airplane propellers, guitar strings, and even spinning a quarter on edge, including slo-mo simulations that show what is happening. About 6 minutes long. The section on airplane propeller begins at about 2:00. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/dNVtMmLlnoE/maxresdefault.jpg "Why Do Cameras Do This? | Rolling Shutter Explained - Smarter Every Day 172") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNVtMmLlnoE) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2020, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1365 "2020-08-23T16:42:32Z")
More ETA: Be sure to watch the Amazon plug at the end too, which shows the rolling shutter effects of the guy with a flock of chickens. He also makes sure to point out that the rolling shutter effect is distinct from the aliasing effect. Note at the very end, there’s also a link to a separate video in which he discusses how this video was made. I didn’t watch that yet, but I’m going to now. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2020, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1366 "2020-08-28T15:12:39Z")
> **[Long-awaited Celera 500L 'bullet' plane is finally revealed | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/celera-500l-plane/index.html)** > > Finally, the mysterious bullet-shaped Celera 500L has been officially revealed. The super-efficicient six-person plane might hit skies by 2025 and could revolutionize private travel ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2020, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1367 "2020-09-04T16:44:34Z")
Neat. The performance claims seem…optimistic? Does the engine also need to go through FAA certification? I remember the nightmare Porsche had doing that, way back when. What’s stall speed going to be with that wing? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1368 "2020-09-04T21:43:55Z")
Here’s the actual company website: [https://www.ottoaviation.com/celera-500l](https://www.ottoaviation.com/celera-500l) Color me extremely skeptical of everything except their desire for investors & deposits. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1369 "2020-09-07T04:08:35Z")
> **[Futuristic 'Flying-V' airplane makes successful maiden flight](https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flying-v-maiden-flight-intl-scli-grm/index.html)** > > Researchers have conducted a successful maiden flight of the Flying-V, a futuristic and fuel efficient airplane that could one day carry passengers in its wings. “It’s only a model.” _“Shh!”_ ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1370 "2020-09-07T13:38:12Z")
You just know the intarwebs will promptly be full of photoshopped pranks announcing this is real: cf. [Boeing 797](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/boeing-797/) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2020, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1371 "2020-09-07T17:19:25Z")
> **[Boeing starts ‘Air Force One’ modifications of 747-8](https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/boeing-starts-air-force-one-modifications-of-747-8/137197.article)** > > Known by its "Air Force One" call sign when the US president flies aboard, the VC-25B are to operate as the USA's top executive transports for the next 30 years. Modifications are being done at Boeing's San Antonio, Texas facility. > **[Boeing 747-8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747-8)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > The Boeing 747-8 is a wide-body airliner formerly developed by Boeing Commercial Airplanes, and the largest variant of the 747. > After introducing the 747-400, Boeing considered larger 747 versions as alternatives to the proposed double-deck Airbus A3XX, later developed as the A380. > The stretched 747 Advanced was launched as the 747-8 on November 14, 2005, for a market forecast of 300 aircraft. > The first 747-8F Freighter performed its maiden fligh... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1372 "2020-09-25T03:04:38Z")
Why is an “Angle of Attack” indicator a premium item on GA planes? I could certainly be wrong about this but it seems nicer planes tout as a feature an AoA indicator whereas less expensive planes do not have one. It seems such a simple thing to have an AoA indicator in the cockpit. Why don’t all planes have this as standard equipment? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1373 "2020-09-25T06:37:39Z")
Because there’s no real need for it. For the vast majority of flying, an airspeed indicator plus an understanding of load factor is adequate. What use did you have in mind for an AoA indicator? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1374 "2020-09-25T08:58:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > What use did you have in mind for an AoA indicator? I have no use in mind. It is a tool that pilots seem to like. It exists which suggests it has a use. It is a thing that seems to be on premium planes. You are a pilot. You tell me. Pilots don’t seem to go in for useless fluff so if this is useless why does it exist? From my non-pilot perspective it seems they are useful to avoid stalls. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1375 "2020-09-25T13:31:28Z")
Several reasons. IMO … The sensors for them are expensive and mechanically delicate. They have not been part of standard private plane equippage since forever. As a result, the vast majority of private pilots have no idea how to use one. It would simply be one more bit of panel clutter that will be ignored when the going gets tough. By definition, a pilot who inadvertently stalls was one who at that moment wasn’t paying attention to what’s important. Typically they get mentally fixated on something else, whether that’s a mechanical failure or a maneuver they were trying to salvage more aggressively than was possible. It’s also worthwhile to distinguish between what I’ll call “instrument-centric flight” and “visually-centric flight”. In a jet or turboprop, you’re _always_ flying on the instruments even if it’s a lovely day outside and you’re in the traffic pattern. Yes, you’re glancing outside for traffic and perhaps for the runway you’re trying to land on. But it’s 90% inside, 10% out the window. The value of a HUD is to move the instruments out the window so a pilot can monitor outside more while not losing the vital inside picture. Conversely, in a single Cessna, unless you’re in the clouds you may not look at the instruments more than a couple of seconds per minute. The whole rest of the time you’re watching outside. And that can be true even if you’re on an instrument flight plan and following an instrument procedure. Ideal technique in the latter case would have more attention paid inside, but it still doesn’t need to be even half-time; things just don’t wander off the desired parameters that quickly in a slow aircraft. The point being that for the airplanes closer to the private plane end of the spectrum, more instruments don’t lead to more safety since most of them aren’t being looked at most of the time. More skill at managing distractions and better basic airmanship so pilots can better feel and hear what’s going on would be more effective. An interesting halfway house would be an stall warning system that was a) not just binary, and b) audible. Which would almost certainly be implemented as an outout of an AOA sensing system. In old Cessnas the stall warning device was no kidding a 8" long child’s plastic bicycle horn that instead of a squeeze bulb was plumbed to the leading edge of the wing. As the airflow started to separate it’d softly bleat intermittently, then as the stall progressed it’d get louder, angrier, and more insistent. In a severe stall it’s be howling away. You could accurately fly very near to stall entirely by ear, just modulating the noise by pushing or pulling. Conversely, most other aircraft simply have an electrical switch that’s moved by the airflow. Switch closed = warning light and/or noisemaker active. Switch open = nothing. The pilot gets zero feedback approaching the warning threshold and also zero feedback on how far past the warning threshold they are once they’ve passed it. A system with non-binary outputs like the Cessna system, but that starts audibly signalling much earlier and has a greater dynamic range from “getting close-ish” to “waay stupid stalled!!!” would be useful. Once everyone was trained to use it. The other issue with stalls is that airplanes don't stall when they get too slow. Despite that being the standard FAA-approved private pilot pedagogy. They actually stall when you try to pull more G's (including even less than 1.0G) than the wing can deliver at the current speed. The consequence of this is that most stall accidents don’t directly result from being slow. They result from being slow-ish, then adding more back-pressure = more G loading, than the wing can handle. Or from a wind gust doing the same thing. Then once G-demanded is excessive to G-available, in just a second at most the airplane transitions from well-above stall to well-past stall. The gyration begins and the ground arrives before there’s time to do anything about fixing that. Oops. The way to win that game is not to play. A deep-seated awareness of remaining G-available is what’s needed. You’re 100% right that an AOA provides something much closer to that exact info than an airspeed indicator does. But only if you’re looking at it or listening to it. AFAIK nobody makes an audio AOA device. My current ride has an AOA gauge on the PFD and on the HUD. And I grew up flying AOA in USAF. In fighters you live and die on AOA. With that background … It’s easy to see the gauge, but it’s even easier to ignore. We spend our entire career trying to stay well away from critical AOAs. So it’s almost never delivering info we can actually use at the moment. On the rare occasions I fly post-COVID I’m actually actively trying to teach my self to pay more attention to it. It’s an uphill struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1376 "2020-09-25T16:48:14Z")
Did anyone watch the PBS 3-part series on Pan Am? It’s called “Across the Pacific”. It’s an amazing look at the birth of transcontinental aviation. In 8 years Pan Am went from a 90 mile route to Cuba with [Sikorsky S-38’s](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Sikorsky_PS-3%2C_1930.jpg) to crossing the Pacific in [Martin M-130’s](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Martin_130_Clipper_%284590527010%29.jpg) and [Boeing 314’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_314_Clipper#/media/File:Boeing_314_Clipper-cropped.jpg). Pan Am planes were beating US Navy speed records to Hawaii by 6 hrs. They were instrumental in advancing aircraft and navigation to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2020, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1377 "2020-09-25T18:18:29Z")
I had not seen that. Thanks. The rest of my today is hereby spent. Here’re the vids for anyone else interested: > **[VPM Documentaries | Season 2020 | Across The Pacific: Episode 1 "Airborne" | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/video/across-the-pacific-airborne-8ms7qa/)** > > Four men join forces to build an airline to South America. [https://www.pbs.org/video/across-the-pacific-latin-laboratory-zjiib7/](https://www.pbs.org/video/across-the-pacific-latin-laboratory-zjiib7/) > **[VPM Documentaries | Season 2020 | Across The Pacific: Episode 3 "Another...](https://www.pbs.org/video/crossing-the-pacific-across-the-pacific-another-ocean-a456bz/)** > > Within two years, Pan Am is offering regular passenger service to Asia. ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1378 "2020-09-26T19:10:53Z")
Thanks for the links. I have a soft spot for flying boats. Brian ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2020, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1379 "2020-09-27T15:01:06Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I had not seen that. Thanks. The rest of my today is hereby spent. So what did you think? I had no idea what an influence Pan Am was on aviation. It was like a business version of Indiana Jones. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499/1380 "2020-09-28T16:57:54Z")
And he flew on (at least) one! At 1:45 here: [Raiders of the Lost Ark: Flight To The Nepal (1981) [HD] - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWfHIlUkmtg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=68) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-aviation-thread-general-and-other-part-1/600499.md?page=70)