# The Great Ongoing Guitar Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [January 31, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172 "2010-01-31T23:20:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 67
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1322 "2011-02-03T16:42:01Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > [http://www.cbperkins.com/](http://www.cbperkins.com/) > > I’ve never heard of 'em - but now I gotta go when I am back that way… > > Ignorance fought! Kent Perkins sold me my surf-green stratocaster. Erick Perkins set it up for me and Josh Perkins taught me to play it. Heroes every one of them. The thing that first impressed me about them was when I went to buy a cheap guitar for my son a few years ago. Kent really took a lot of time with us even though we were only spending $200 bucks and didn’t know what we were talking about. Erick & Kent have an internet TV show about Luthiering. Never watched it though. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1323 "2011-02-03T19:29:18Z")
Wow, thanks to everyone who chimed in on my setup issue. You guys rock!! It’s probably worth mentioning my methodology here, in case it has bearing on the advice I’m being given: 1. Using a Boss TU-80 (and at the same time the tuner in Guitar Rig, just for grins), I tune the low E open. 2. With the low E saddle moved as far from the neck as far as it will go, I measured the low-E as ~19c sharp (both tuners agree) compared to unfretted. 3. As a test, I moved the low E saddle back toward the neck by about half of it’s travel. The tuners rated this as 30c sharp, so apparently this really is a problem and I’m approaching the adjustment the right way. > [@Small\_Clanger](#): > > So everything is tending to too sharp? Makes it sound like the whole bridge is in the wrong place! No, the middle and high strings are adjustable to correct intonation. I had mistakenly thought I couldn’t intonate the A, but I can with that saddle pretty far south from the neck. The low E is the string that I can’t get right because I’m out of saddle-travel. > [@](#): > > OK don’t panic. Presuming your bridge looks like the 6-way Tele bridge on the page you linked to - When you say the low E is ‘beyond adjustment’ do you mean that you’ve compressed the saddle spring as far as it will go? If so you could either cut it down a bit, replace it with a shorter spring or remove it. Any of these an option? Good suggestion! I’ve just tried that and removed the spring and replaced the string. With no spring in that saddle screw, and if I snug the saddle down nearly all the way (I’ve just posted a photo of that setup [here](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn66/squeegee64/IMG_3682sm.jpg)), the string intonates. Yay! > [@Crotalus](#): > > **squeegee** - If the whole bridge is out of place, you should be able to verify that with a tape measure. The distance from the nut to the 12th fret is supposed to be half of the distance from the nut to the bridge saddle on the high E. When the high E is intonated properly, its saddle should be closer to the uncompressed spring position than the fully compressed position. If the spring for the high E is close to fully compressed when the intonation is right, the whole bridge may be off. I just got out the measuring tape and measured what you described. The distance from the nut to the 12th fret is about 12 13/16" (it actually looks like 12 25/32", but my tape measure isn’t accurate to that degree). With the **high** E intonated correctly, the saddle is as close as I can tell exactly the same distance to from the 12th to the bridge saddle. With the **low** E intonated as close as I could get, the distance from the 12th to that saddle is about 13". > [@](#): > > Assuming the bridge position is OK, the only other thing I can think of that would cause the problem is string height. When you fret a string, you are bending it. If the action is low, the effect is negligible, but if the action is high enough, the string will intonate sharp. See if you can lower the saddle height for the two problem strings, and that might fix the problem. That string is actually of pretty moderate height. As near as I can tell, it’s just under 3/16" from the neck at the 12th fret, and it feels comfortable to play. Thanks to removing that saddle spring, this axe is once again playable. That said, I don’t want to have no spring in the low-E saddle, and I’d like to know what changed – I’ve intonated this guitar multiple times over a couple of years, with no issues whatsoever, although it’s been months since the last time. What the heck happened? I’ve gotten a couple of pointers to places I can take the instrument, big thanks to **Kevlev** and **WordMan**. I’ll see if I can get this instrument to a tech soon, and I’ll post a report when I get it back from the guitar doctor. Thanks again, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1324 "2011-02-03T21:22:38Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > - Your neck could need the relief adjusted > - Your neck could’ve shifted in the bolt-on pocket enough to affect things - which may or may not be adjustable via the micro-tilt. > - The problem may be at the nut, affecting string length somehow; a hang-up pulling you sharp when you depress the string. > Keep noodling with it; that’s how you learn - but don’t do anything to compromise the instrument and don’t tweak the neck relief unless you know exactly why. Best of luck. This is exactly what I’ve been thinking all day. If it’s all sharp, the only answer is that the neck somehow got shorter, which means the truss rod isn’t as stiff as it could be. I’m betting it’s probably just the truss rod… or maybe the nut, probably the truss rod. Buuuut I’d wait till I got it to a pro. This is why I have that cheap-ass guitar, so I could tweak it without being scared of breaking it. Also, get a Snark all-instrument tuner. You’ll love it. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1325 "2011-02-03T21:56:15Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I’ve gotten a couple of pointers to places I can take the instrument, big thanks to **Kevlev** and **WordMan**. I’ll see if I can get this instrument to a tech soon, and I’ll post a report when I get it back from the guitar doctor. > . If do happen to go to CB Perkins, maybe you’d be interested in meeting for beer at The Britannia Arms. We could talk about guitars 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1326 "2011-02-03T22:22:32Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > If do happen to go to CB Perkins, maybe you’d be interested in meeting for beer at The Britannia Arms. We could talk about guitars 🙂 Sounds good! Maybe you could help me get the spelling of your username right as well. :smack: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1327 "2011-02-04T04:17:00Z")
Ha! I e-mailed my guitar teacher to see if he knew a good tech in the area, and he replied, “C.B. Perkins are who I take my guitar when I need it serviced. They’re great! Talk to Eric or Josh. Tell them that I sent you.” Looks like we have good reviews all around. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1328 "2011-02-04T04:56:19Z")
After nearly two years of playing with my first guitar (an entry-level Epi Les Paul Special-II), and complaining about the sound (particularly the buzzing low-E string), I finally took the plunge. (Many thanks to **WordMan** for his consultation during the process!) I started by doing some comparison shopping, back in December. I went to Guitar Center, and spent a couple of hours trying out different styles of guitar. In talking with **WordMan** , I realized that I probably wanted to stay with a Les Paul – I like the sound, and a lot of the classic rock I’ve been playing originated on LPs. That said, in addition to trying a number of different Epi LP models (my limited budget precluded Gibsons), I tried a Strat, a Tele, and a couple of semi-hollow-bodies. I settled on an Epi Les Paul 100 – I liked the tone and feel just as much (if not more) than the more expensive Epi Les Paul Standard. However, given that it was a few weeks before Christmas, I didn’t have a new guitar in the budget just then. Then, two weeks ago, I got a little bonus check at work – not a ton, but it just so happened to be about the same amount as the LP-100. I had been checking GC’s web site, and the 100, in cherry sunburst, was in stock at my local store. So, I went in there, and discovered that they’d just sold it. ☹ It wasn’t even in stock at GC’s warehouse; it had to be ordered from Epiphone. The guitar finally arrived on Monday, and I took it to my guitar school, to have the technician there do a set-up on it. He figured it would only take him a day…but the next day, that blizzard hit here in Chicago, and the school was closed on Tuesday and Wednesday. So, I wasn’t actually able to start playing it until tonight. I’m a happy camper. I’m already in love with how this instrument feels in my hands, and the tone it creates. And, it doesn’t buzz! Here’s a picture (the actual color is a little brighter than it looks in this picture, which is from my iPhone): [![Imgur](https://live.staticflickr.com/5217/5415210934_253c1e4c91_b.jpg "Epiphone Les Paul 100 guitar") ](https://www.flickr.com/photos/30352932@N03/5415210934/) ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1329 "2011-02-04T04:56:32Z")
Let me know when the big day comes and I’ll down and meet you. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1330 "2011-02-04T12:39:40Z")
**squeegee** , sounds like your set; it will be interesting to hear what they find. \*\*kenobi 65 \*\*- looks great; having a cool guitar that feels playable is half the battle because it will encourage you to play more. Let us know what you think of it. Please remember the “honeymoon” period - a great first bit, then a lull and finally a steady state. When I got a few guitars home, it took a while for my playing style to figure out how to take advantage of their strengths. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1331 "2011-02-04T18:51:09Z")
Looks great, Kenobi! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1332 "2011-02-04T20:08:12Z")
[https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/business/03kaman.html?\_r=1&hpw](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/03/business/03kaman.html?_r=1&hpw) Charles H. Kaman, inventer of the Ovation round-backed guitar, has passed on. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1333 "2011-02-05T15:59:15Z")
G’darn it. Finally popped a DVD in, started watching. The instructor’s pinky finger does not crab sideways like mine does, he can actually fret 1 and 4 at the same time. Mine hooks in like a J. I consider this an issue. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1334 "2011-02-05T20:49:04Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > G’darn it. Finally popped a DVD in, started watching. The instructor’s pinky finger does not crab sideways like mine does, he can actually fret 1 and 4 at the same time. Mine hooks in like a J. I consider this an issue. Any thoughts? Can we get a little more context here? What is it you’re trying to play? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1335 "2011-02-06T00:15:47Z")
I might do some guitar shopping this afternoon, looking at acoustics. Way up thread I got some advice on decent models in the $600ish range, and I’m finally starting to act on it. I’m thinking of getting an acoustic-electric with a cutaway. I don’t know if I want spruce or cedar, I’ll need to take a listen to both. The guitar is strictly for enjoying at home, I doubt I’d ever haul it anywhere. Some quick questions: 1. I’ve heard people say (or post) that such-and-such guitar is better for fingerstyle, vs some other guitar that’s best to flatpick. What, construction-wise, would be different between these guitars? I’m a flat picker who is interested in learning fingerstyle; can a guitar be good for both? 2. Body styles – dreadnought seems the most common. Where does it fit in the scale of different sizes. Is there any reason to consider smaller or larger bodies? I know a larger body == louder. OTOH, the larger the body the more work it is to play, depending on your reach. Is that about right? Are there other reasons to prefer different body styles? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1336 "2011-02-06T00:49:37Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Can we get a little more context here? What is it you’re trying to play? Just (Low E) F F# G G#. It’s a trivial little exercise on the DVD I dug up. And I noticed that the instructor’s hand is nice and flat on the strings, while if I try it, my pinky winds up sideways and pointing up. If my index finger is on the F, my pinky hits the bottom of the G fret going up. His is on the top of the G# without doing a thing. This explains some of the problems I’ve been having. Gonna need to stretch a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1337 "2011-02-06T00:51:23Z")
Acoustic: Welp, I’ve learned that the ones with pickguards are probably better for flatpicking, because they have a pickguard. Aaaand I’ve learned the ones shaped like a Les Paul have better access to the lower frets, and the ones with a soundhole in the top are just plain louder. Dreadnoughts are big. There are bigger guitars, one size bigger I think, but you almost never see 'em. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1338 "2011-02-06T04:37:46Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Just (Low E) F F# G G#. It’s a trivial little exercise on the DVD I dug up. And I noticed that the instructor’s hand is nice and flat on the strings, while if I try it, my pinky winds up sideways and pointing up. If my index finger is on the F, my pinky hits the bottom of the G fret going up. His is on the top of the G# without doing a thing. This explains some of the problems I’ve been having. > Gonna need to stretch a lot more. Have you tried experimenting with your thumb position? Putting the thumb behind the neck forces your fingers forward more and they lay more parallel to the frets, which hopefully increases the distance you can stretch. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1339 "2011-02-06T15:42:02Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > Any musician can learn and use the Nashville system. It’s just a chord chart with some specific symbols and rules. However, from what I’ve heard, unless you are playing in Nashville, there is really no _need_ to learn the system. On the other hand, learning basic theory like scale and chord construction, the chordal scale, keys and transposing, intervals, modes, **and how these relate to your instrument** are much more important and part of the [never-ending] process of becoming a more educated and well-rounded musician. You know, I had never heard of the Nashville System so I looked it up. I discovered that this is just the name for “writing down chord changes” that I have been using for 30 years. This is just how you do it in jazz. Nobody ever refers to the name or thinks of it as a “system.” It’s just notation that disconnects it from the key, and it’s not particularly friendly or hostile to any one instrument. In fact, when a guitar player is in a room with a (Bb) trumpet player and a (Eb) sax player, it’s the most effective way to discuss changes in a particular tune (“See where it goes from the V to the I? You can play that as a Vb9”). What is has to do with being in or outside of Nashville I have no idea. (Sorry for the late response.) ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1340 "2011-02-06T17:46:54Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I might do some guitar shopping this afternoon, looking at acoustics. Way up thread I got some advice on decent models in the $600ish range, and I’m finally starting to act on it. I’m thinking of getting an acoustic-electric with a cutaway. I don’t know if I want spruce or cedar, I’ll need to take a listen to both. The guitar is strictly for enjoying at home, I doubt I’d ever haul it anywhere. > > Some quick questions: > > 1. I’ve heard people say (or post) that such-and-such guitar is better for fingerstyle, vs some other guitar that’s best to flatpick. What, construction-wise, would be different between these guitars? I’m a flat picker who is interested in learning fingerstyle; can a guitar be good for both? > > 2. Body styles – dreadnought seems the most common. Where does it fit in the scale of different sizes. Is there any reason to consider smaller or larger bodies? I know a larger body == louder. OTOH, the larger the body the more work it is to play, depending on your reach. Is that about right? Are there other reasons to prefer different body styles? 1. Nut width and width at the saddle. More width suits fingerstyle, because the strings will be slightly further apart. Fingerstylers seem to prefer a nut width of 1 3/4" or more, while many acoustics have narrower nuts than that. It depends on how fat your fingers are, of course. You might be fine on a regular acoustic. But it is surprising how much difference a small fraction of an inch makes. 2. Bigger bodies will tend to have a lower resonant frequency (all acoustics have a resonant frequency at which they’re a little louder, typically somewhere in the low E to A range) and generally more bass volume. I noticed this when I replaced my dreadnought with a slightly smaller GA-shape acoustic - the dread resonated at F#, the new guitar at A, three semitones higher. the other thing about the slightly smaller body is that it’s much more comfortable to play. Again, a small difference (I think the body is only 1/4" slimmer, but the “waist” is also slightly narrower) makes a hell of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1341 "2011-02-07T04:39:31Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > You know, I had never heard of the Nashville System so I looked it up. I discovered that this is just the name for “writing down chord changes” that I have been using for 30 years. This is just how you do it in jazz. Nobody ever refers to the name or thinks of it as a “system.” It’s just notation that disconnects it from the key, and it’s not particularly friendly or hostile to any one instrument. In fact, when a guitar player is in a room with a (Bb) trumpet player and a (Eb) sax player, it’s the most effective way to discuss changes in a particular tune (“See where it goes from the V to the I? You can play that as a Vb9”). > > What is has to do with being in or outside of Nashville I have no idea. > > (Sorry for the late response.) Cue the broken record: The Nashville System is NOT just using the numbers of the chords in the chordal scale. It is a specific way of writing a chart that includes arabic numerals and symbols to give other information. Yes, it’s based on the way we talk through changes. From an earlier post: “If you want to see some examples of charts, look at [this](http://www.moderndrummer.com/rsrc/education//Lips%20of%20an%20angel%20Number%20Chart.jpg) or [this](http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/draft_lens5923732module46305212photo_1247708688Nashville_Number_System_example.jpg). It’s not just numbers.” As far as the Nashville connection, it is used by the session players there: as they listen to a demo or a run-through on guitar or piano, they listen to the changes and make a chart based on what they hear. Or they’re given one. It’s called that because that’s where this type of chord chart originated. Any Nashville studio guys out who can give us the skinny? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172.md?page=66) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172.md?page=68)