# The Great Ongoing Guitar Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [January 31, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172 "2010-01-31T23:20:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 83
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1642 "2011-05-09T02:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > … I dunno. How do you feel about putting modern style saddles on a Tele? You know, six individual? Instead of the three barrels? It’s probably necessary if you’re gonna play a Keith style five-string open-G, but I’m not gonna do that. Personally, I don’t see the point of three-saddle bridges. It’s the same sort of thing as relic jobs – it happens, not because it makes a difference, but because old and broken is fashionable. I’d change it out – but I’d keep hold of the old parts, so you can restore it to stock if you want to sell it on. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1643 "2011-05-09T05:33:49Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Harmonics - the second year course… > > Natural harmonics (e.g. on the open string; for right-handed guitarists, can be sounded either by the left hand stopping the string and the right hand plucking or picking it or by the right hand stopping and plucking.) are a standing wave produced by preventing the string from vibrating at its full length at a nodal point, causing it to vibrate as two halves, three thirds, four quarters, etc. The smaller the fraction, the greater the energy required to generate the standing wave. > > 1st harmonic - found at the 12th fret, produces a sound one octave higher. The string is producing a standing wave in which 1/2 of the string is vibrating on either side of the node. (The node is at the 12th fret, logically enough.) > 2nd harmonic - found at the 7th and 19th frets, produces a sound one octave and a fifth higher (a ‘twelfth’.) 1/3 of the string length is vibrating. > 3rd harmonic - found at the 5th and 24th frets, produces a sound two octaves higher. 1/4 of the string length is vibrating. > 4th harmonic - found at the 4th, 9th, 16th and 28th frets, produces a sound two octaves and a major third higher. 1/5 of the string length is vibrating > 5th harmonic - found at the 3rd and 31st frets, produces a sound two octaves and a fifth higher. 1/6 of the string is vibrating. > 6th harmonic - found near the half-way mark between the second and third frets, produces a sound two octaves and a minor seventh higher. 1/7 of the string is vibrating. > 7th harmonic - found about a quarter of the way higher than the second fret, produces a sound three octaves higher. 1/8 of the string is vibrating. > 8th harmonic - found over the second fret, produces a sound 3 octaves and a major second higher. 1/9 of the string is vibrating. > > Those last three have ‘off the fretboard’ equivalents, but I’ve never tried to find them. On my classicals, the 24th fret is found by imagining a line perpendicular to the strings at the centre of the sound hole. The 28th fret is a line perpendicular to the strings at the tangent of the inner arc of the sound hole. The 31st fret is a line perpendicular to the strings at the tangent of the outer arc of the sound hole. The 34th fret is just a little ways closer to the saddle of the bridge; I’ve never yet had to find it without having first played the 31st. One of the current pieces I’m working on calls for four random sweeps of harmonics between the 24th fret and the saddle, going top string to bottom. It’s a pretty cool sound… > > For artificial harmonics, all the above applies except that you are adding that number of frets to the fret you are stopping, ie to produce a note an octave above the F natural at the 3rd fret of the 4th string, stop the string lightly with the right index finger at the 15th fret, and pluck with either the right thumb or the right middle, ring or pinky finger. To get a note a twelfth above, stop the string at the 10th or 22nd fret. I’ve never used artificial harmonics above two octaves higher, unless you count pick squawks. Really controlled players like Joe Satriani, Adrian Belew or Steve Vai use pick squawks, in conjunction with feedback and EQ to produce incredibly high, sustained harmonics. > > I find round wound steel strings are more responsive to harmonics than nylon strings, but nylon players tend to have better nails and softer callouses. That’s part of why the RH technique for harmonics works so well - the RH fingertips are not calloused, and the softer flesh does a better job of stopping the string at the node. When using the LH fingers to stop the strings, the side of the finger may well produce a better tone than the tip. Wow, thanks for all of the harmonic convergence, good Ministre! I will return later with comments/questions; this weekend has been a bit of a cluster. One quick question. I did fiddle around with some of the stuff you wrote about above; is it just me, or is it easier to hear some of the more exotic harmonics on an acoustic than electric (setting aside pick squawks)? Perhaps electric pickups don’t sample enough of the string’s length, where with an acoustic you hear everything that crosses the sound hole and/or sound board? Or maybe I’m just imagining it. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1644 "2011-05-09T09:33:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [http://www.eastwoodguitars.com/](http://www.eastwoodguitars.com/) > > I’ll just… leave this here. Note the Dobro with a P90. Eastwood Delta 6. I have one of those. Haven’t been playing bottleneck much lately, but it was my main style for a couple of years. I got the D6 because I wanted a solidbody resonator guitar. It’s not bad, kind of harsh sounding but that works for a reso. I replaced the cheap generic P-90 with a DiMarzio, which improved matters. There’s a contact pickup under the bridge, but it’s unusable by itself - too toppy - and I found the best sound (for me) is the neck pickup on full with a little bridge pup mixed in to add some clang. They sound pretty good acoustically, too; quieter than a regular reso, which actually makes them more usable for just sitting around practising. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1645 "2011-05-09T09:35:47Z")
Oh, and “Dobro” is a brand name, not a type of guitar; the correct term for the ones that aren’t made by the Dobro company is “resonator” or “reso guitar”. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1646 "2011-05-09T10:32:12Z")
If I remember right, on a Stratocaster, the 24th fret is on the neck pickup, which creates some interesting effects. Kim: It’s a clone, so anything I do with it will improve the value, probably, but putting in a 6 saddle bridge involves drilling. Wait, no. [http://www.guitarfetish.com/Vintage-Style-6-Saddle-Tele-Bridge\_p\_67.html](http://www.guitarfetish.com/Vintage-Style-6-Saddle-Tele-Bridge_p_67.html) That’ll work fine. Do it, the tuners, and the trees at the same time. But not right now. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Clanger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@Small\_Clanger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Clanger)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1647 "2011-05-09T10:58:37Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] > **[Eastwood Guitars | Vintage Tributes Shipped Worldwide](https://eastwoodguitars.com/)** > > See why guitarists around the world choose our vintage remake guitars that play, sound, and look better than the classics they pay tribute to. I’ll just… leave this here. Note the Dobro with a P90. [/QUOTE] Note also… Robyn Hitchcock! Is he actually above the radar in the US these days? There’s some really good stuf on [Propeller Time](http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/qrfd) I think some tracks are an experiment in extending _jangliness_ beyond all previous limits, Robyn is pretty jangly on his own but check out the collaborators. (JPJ plays mandolin BTW, for extra jangliness). ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1648 "2011-05-09T13:58:45Z")
About to go into a meeting. **Le Ministre** - harmonically fascinating; thanks. Eastwoods are decent; I have played a few and would love to get a Tuxedo (based on an old Kay Barney Kessel) or the Harmony Strato-Tone big-necked, small-bodied guitar for slide if I had unlimited resources. Their quality control is pretty good, but I’d probably swap out the pickups and electronics on the bet that an upgrade would be worth it. 3-barrel Tele bridges: I am not going to argue the point; I can’t take a stand that makes 3 saddles better than being able to individually adjust each string - and if you get brass saddles you can get the warmth of brass vs. the ringiness of chrome/steel alternatives. Having said that, I loaded 3-barrelers on my two homebrew Teles simply to keep things easy; I rarely have a problem with tuning or intonation and I know how to work with those bridges… ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1649 "2011-05-09T14:58:20Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Wow, thanks for all of the harmonic convergence, good Ministre! I will return later with comments/questions; this weekend has been a bit of a cluster. > > One quick question. I did fiddle around with some of the stuff you wrote about above; is it just me, or is it easier to hear some of the more exotic harmonics on an acoustic than electric (setting aside pick squawks)? Perhaps electric pickups don’t sample enough of the string’s length, where with an acoustic you hear everything that crosses the sound hole and/or sound board? Or maybe I’m just imagining it. Well spotted, **squeegee**! You’ve got it. It’s not just you - an acoustic instrument’s top is resonating with the vibrations of the string, and the back and sides shape, gather and help to project that sound, giving a surface against which the sound can reflect. An electric instrument with single or double coil pickup (NB - a piezo-electric pick up like a Fishman bridge is doing something different from a single or double coil pickup, and will not have such varied responses to harmonics.) is responding electromagnetically to the vibration of the metal of the string directly above it. Now, it will depend where the node(s) and the anti-node(s) are in relation to the pickup. As **E-Sabbath** pointed out a couple of posts back, Strats and Teles have the neck pickup directly under the 24th fret. As a result, the anti-node of a 12th fret harmonic is directly over the pick-up, therefore picking up the maximum amplitude. A 7th/19th fret harmonic will have that neck pickup under about a third of the way along the standing wave, giving about 1/3 the amplitude. A 5th/24th fret harmonic will have the neck pick-up directly under the node - there’s negligible vibration to pick up. The same will be true of any or all pickups - there will be more or less vibration to detect depending on the position of the node or anti-node of the standing wave. Even when you mix pick-ups, you’ll get a change in the balance of what they are sensing, so that suddenly this note will only come through the bridge pickup, whereas the note before was coming through all three. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1650 "2011-05-09T15:21:50Z")
As I have pointed out a few times, trying to catch a 5th fret harmonic on an electric using the neck pickup can be tough; I remember getting my first Strat and calling back to inquire if anything might be wrong - nothing like being told “well, have you flicked the pickup switch to the bridge position?” to make you go :smack::smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1651 "2011-05-10T00:10:00Z")
I’ve been thinking. There may be a reason to those barrel bridges. They’ve got a lot more mass to them than the six-bridge versions. I’ve got three options here. Classic. Probably done right, unlike the hand drilled job on mine. [http://www.guitarfetish.com/3-Brass-Saddle-Tele-Bridge-Chrome--IN-STOCK\_p\_30.html](http://www.guitarfetish.com/3-Brass-Saddle-Tele-Bridge-Chrome--IN-STOCK_p_30.html) Six barrel style. Steel, so even more ringy. Which may be what I want. I don’t know. I love the way it sounds now, but if steel makes it even more Tele-like, why not? [http://www.guitarfetish.com/Vintage-Style-6-Saddle-Tele-Bridge\_p\_67.html#](http://www.guitarfetish.com/Vintage-Style-6-Saddle-Tele-Bridge_p_67.html#) And this ‘Compensated’ style. [http://www.guitarfetish.com/Wilkinson-Compensated-Tele-Bridge-Brass-Saddles\_p\_873.html#](http://www.guitarfetish.com/Wilkinson-Compensated-Tele-Bridge-Brass-Saddles_p_873.html#) This is interesting. It’s a barrel with a leading and trailing edge, so you can adjust in a more saddle-like way. Either way, I’ll use it as an excuse to put some new tuners in. I think these. [http://www.guitarfetish.com/Wilkinson-EZLok-Vintage-Style-Tuners-for-Fender-Headstocks\_p\_886.html](http://www.guitarfetish.com/Wilkinson-EZLok-Vintage-Style-Tuners-for-Fender-Headstocks_p_886.html) And I was thinking I’d swap out the string trees, while I was screwing around. [http://www.guitarfetish.com/Pair-of-Roller-String-trees-Chrome-finish\_p\_601.html](http://www.guitarfetish.com/Pair-of-Roller-String-trees-Chrome-finish_p_601.html) I mean, if I’m going to go open up the bridge, I might as well do the rest, I was going to one day. They shouldn’t change the sound any much. ---
**Author:** ![Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kim\_o\_the\_Concrete\_Jungle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kim_o_the_Concrete_Jungle)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1652 "2011-05-10T00:48:44Z")
I bought the Tele with the six saddle bridge, so I’m the opposite of you guys. I don’t have a three saddle bridge to compare it to. Wordman pointed out that the three saddle bridge is brass, which hadn’t occurred to me. I’d say that probably makes the biggest difference in the sound, if there _is_ a difference. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1653 "2011-05-10T02:19:24Z")
But what does a steel bridge do to the sound? More ringy, less warm… got comparisons somewhere? By the way, Kim, have I shown you the specific beast we’re talking about? It’s a little different. Then again, I only have one normal guitar. The rest of them are ‘a little different’. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1654 "2011-05-10T02:42:52Z")
Purely a wild-ass guess on my part, but I think the steel, being harder, would give a brighter, more trebley tone. Brass, being softer, would be a bit bassy-er. This speculation based on the difference in tone quality between using a brass slide and a chromed steel slide. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1655 "2011-05-10T12:57:28Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > Purely a wild-ass guess on my part, but I think the steel, being harder, would give a brighter, more trebley tone. Brass, being softer, would be a bit bassy-er. This speculation based on the difference in tone quality between using a brass slide and a chromed steel slide. Pretty much it. Brass saddles are warmer than the steel ones - or the threaded-barrel bridges that were used on some Teles. To me, a Tele is so fundamentally bright to begin with that I don’t mind the slight treble cut the brass provides. I am already rolling off my Tone control a bunch for my main tone anyway…gotta tame those highs. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1656 "2011-05-10T17:20:15Z")
So, what do you think of that ‘compensated’ design, Wordman? It’s that or original flavor. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1657 "2011-05-10T19:04:45Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > So, what do you think of that ‘compensated’ design, Wordman? It’s that or original flavor. I got a compensated 3-Barrel brass for the Tele Special I built. It works just great for my needs. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1658 "2011-05-10T19:51:03Z")
Then we have a winner. I’ll keep the old barrels, and I can swap 'em back if I don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1659 "2011-05-10T21:29:33Z")
I learned a very interesting technique today. Pluck the string gently and slowly exactly 12 frets above the note you are fingering. Do this for every note in a melodic line. Because the first harmonic is suppressed by the plucking finger, it gives a distinct timbre to the notes, almost like a clarinet. In fact, the technique is referred to as ‘clarinet’ - a clarinet has its characteristic tone colour because it overblows at the 12th, not the octave. I will have to investigate further to find out if a clarinet has no first (harmonic) overtone whatsoever, or if it just has a very subdued one… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1660 "2011-05-11T00:08:02Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > I learned a very interesting technique today. Pluck the string gently and slowly exactly 12 frets above the note you are fingering. Do this for every note in a melodic line. Because the first harmonic is suppressed by the plucking finger, it gives a distinct timbre to the notes, almost like a clarinet. In fact, the technique is referred to as ‘clarinet’ - a clarinet has its characteristic tone colour because it overblows at the 12th, not the octave. > > I will have to investigate further to find out if a clarinet has no first (harmonic) overtone whatsoever, or if it just has a very subdued one… On electric that’s what Eddie did on songs like Dance the Night Away. I remember hearing another song he did those harmonics on from VH2 Women in Love - whoa. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172/1661 "2011-05-12T01:26:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > I am entirely in general agreement with the quality of Airlines. But… someone’s making new ones. > [@Shakester](#): > > Eastwood Delta 6. I have one of those. > > Haven’t been playing bottleneck much lately, but it was my main style for a couple of years. I got the D6 because I wanted a solidbody resonator guitar. It’s not bad, kind of harsh sounding but that works for a reso. > [@WordMan](#): > > Eastwoods are decent; I have played a few and would love to get a Tuxedo (based on an old Kay Barney Kessel) or the Harmony Strato-Tone big-necked, small-bodied guitar for slide if I had unlimited resources. Their quality control is pretty good, but I’d probably swap out the pickups and electronics on the bet that an upgrade would be worth it. Well, then. I sit corrected. I didn’t know the brands had blended. Ignorance fought. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172.md?page=82) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-guitar-thread/527172.md?page=84)