# The Great Ongoing Space Exploration Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** science-math\ **Created:** [November 16, 2020, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703 "2020-11-16T12:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1462 "2024-08-02T21:33:20Z")
I also wonder if companies or people are ever _passively_ working on something. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1463 "2024-08-02T21:38:41Z")
“If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.” The problem of deciding whether the capsule is fit for the return trip is solved when it exceeds its expendables endurance. Then you just have to decide how to get your astronauts home after you eject and re-enter that worthless hunk of junk. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1464 "2024-08-02T21:49:48Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > I also wonder if companies or people are ever _passively_ working on something Boeing seems to be having a go at it. It is a bit redundant sounding, but when I hear that phrase I tend to think bending metal vs. stuck in committee. There have been suggestions that SpaceX is working on bringing back the original Dragon configuration with seven seats (there was a conference call with SpaceX where they emphasized that Dragon still supports this configuration, but they didn’t go into more detail). NASA wanted more margin for rough sea landings, and removing some of the seats gave them more shock absorption distance. But I think NASA might be willing to bend on that target. SpaceX doesn’t waste their time screwing around, so if there’s a legit chance at this happening, they’re undoubtedly already installing the extra seats in one of their capsules. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1465 "2024-08-02T23:01:46Z")
The right answer is fill the Starliner with garbage (or other legit downmass) and reenter it. If it survives, a good lesson is learned. If it doesn’t, a different, but equally valuable lesson is learned. And at a tolerable price to all. It seems utterly clear to me that NASA can’t stand to kill two astronauts, while Boeing can’t stand to take the reputational hit from being relegated to a garbage scow. Where the records for Starliner, even if it becomes a long-term success, will forever have the asterisk that astronauts up != astronauts down. And so the war is inside NASA between the politics-first faction of their suits and the engineering-first faction of their suits. Another possibility (that I just thought of based on exactly zero actual evidence) is that the ride up was a lot worse than anyone is saying in public. More issues, more nil margins to disaster that happened to go the lucky way, more scared shitless astronauts who’re not interested in trying round 2 going back down and are making their views very forcefully known on the encrypted comm channels. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1466 "2024-08-02T23:23:02Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The right answer is fill the Starliner with garbage (or other legit downmass) and reenter it. Something weird, though. NASA said this last week: > “Our prime option is to complete the mission," [Stich said one week ago](https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/07/nasa-nears-decision-on-what-to-do-with-boeings-troubled-starliner-spacecraft/). “There are a lot of good reasons to complete this mission and bring Butch and Suni home on Starliner. **Starliner was designed, as a spacecraft, to have the crew in the cockpit.** ” Maybe it doesn’t mean anything. But it’s such an odd statement that I wonder why Stich said it. It’s undoubtedly _possible_ to operate Starliner remotely. But… maybe the margins are in some way less? Like, one layer of the redundancy chain actually depends on having humans in the loop. For example, if their ground comms aren’t as redundant as they should be, it depends on the passengers to initiate the deorbit. Or something like that. Pure speculation. I just find the statement bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2024, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1467 "2024-08-03T00:59:18Z")
I had the same reaction when I first read that. It’s a fundamentally un-parseable short sentence that speaks volumes about something utterly hidden from public view. An ultimate “inside baseball” comment. Unless it was sort of internal NASA “humor” like pushing back on the “spam can” comments of the Original Mercury 7 who felt themselves to be largely useless ballast, at least in the early capsule designs. IOW: “NASA won’t be boldly going by de-orbiting trash. The mission of Starliner is to ferry people, and by gosh we’re gonna Do The Mission. Spaceflight is really Human Spaceflight and there’s no backing away from that.” Or it was a _really_ clumsy way of saying “Weight and balance requires human crew on the seats, and we don’t have any sort of ad hoc harness system to hold suitably weighted ballast in the same spatial distribution even if we wanted to. Which we don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1468 "2024-08-05T18:21:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > It’s a fundamentally un-parseable short sentence that speaks volumes about something utterly hidden from public view. An ultimate “inside baseball” comment. And there we go: > Three separate, well-placed sources have confirmed to Ars that the current flight software on board Starliner cannot perform an automated undocking from the space station and entry into Earth’s atmosphere. > > At first blush, this seems absurd. After all, Boeing’s Orbital Flight Test 2 mission in May 2022 was a fully automated test of the Starliner vehicle. During this mission, the spacecraft flew up to the space station without crew on board and then returned to Earth six days later. Although the 2022 flight test was completed by a different Starliner vehicle, it clearly demonstrated the ability of the program’s flight software to autonomously dock and return to Earth. Boeing did not respond to a media query about why this capability was removed for the crew flight test. > **[NASA likely to significantly delay the launch of Crew 9 due to Starliner issues](https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-likely-to-significantly-delay-the-launch-of-crew-9-due-to-starliner-issues/)** > > The primary reason for the delay is rather surprising. All I can do is shake my head at this point. My speculation about passengers initiating the deorbit was right. Except… I was thinking that was only for the case where other systems had already failed. Not that it was literally impossible to do it without passengers! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1469 "2024-08-05T18:31:05Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > All I can do is shake my head at this point. My speculation about passengers initiating the deorbit was right. Except… I was thinking that was only for the case where other systems had already failed. Not that it was literally impossible to do it without passengers! Maybe Boeing made automated docking and undocking be a special option not included in the “standard equipment” version, figuring that most flights will be crewed. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1470 "2024-08-05T19:23:56Z")
That’ll be an extra $100 million: ![](https://media1.giphy.com/media/l41lUJ1YoZB1lHVPG/200.gif?cid=dda24d50ca2t6yfq5k90cpla3e9qpy8plp5htq0dplzogv6k&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=200.gif&ct=g "The Simpsons Computer GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY") ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1471 "2024-08-05T19:53:55Z")
did they spring for the " **Starting at: $14,990,000,000,000.00" version** \*) ??? \*) restrictions apply ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1472 "2024-08-05T21:26:56Z")
So if they don’t want to sacrifice an astronaut on a defective capsule, what are the options? Shouldn’t there be a way to do a forced undocking without cooperation from the capsule? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1473 "2024-08-05T21:39:24Z")
I don’t know if that’s possible. Starliner and Crew Dragon were designed for docking, not berthing. With docking, the spacecraft is responsible for navigating all the way to contact. For berthing, the robot arm is used to bring the craft in. Even if the docking adapter could be separated from just one side (I don’t know about this), you still have to move the spacecraft away. But there’s no attachment point for the arm as far as I know, and besides it isn’t in the right place. And then… what do you do with the craft? You can’t just chuck it away; it’ll collide with the station on the next orbit (you can get away with that for cubesats due to their tiny size and high drag, but not a whole capsule). Maybe you could move the ISS itself to a safe distance. Regardless, it’s the worst sort of space junk you can imagine. Just unbelievable that it isn’t capable of fully automated operation. They say a software update is possible, but it never should have flown without that capability. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1474 "2024-08-05T21:48:53Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Just unbelievable that it isn’t capable of fully automated operation. They say a software update is possible, but it never should have flown without that capability. Fly up the guy who made that decision, have _him_ do the undocking. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1475 "2024-08-05T22:06:19Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Fly up the guy who made that decision, have _him_ do the undocking. Garner and Southerland are gone, but I think Eastwood and Jones could probably be available if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1476 "2024-08-06T03:38:18Z")
:: Golf clap :: ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1477 "2024-08-06T03:56:06Z")
And here I thought I was one of the few people alive who still remembered that awful (and yet weirdly funny) movie. Thanks for getting it! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1478 "2024-08-06T20:38:27Z")
Haven’t seen it since it came out in 2000, but [it was fun.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjIMiGb_tmM) 🚀 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1479 "2024-08-06T22:25:43Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Fly up the guy who made that decision, have _him_ do the undocking. Having real skin in the game would certainly alter a LOT of management priorities at Boeing and other aerospace government contractors, both Primes and 2nd or 3rd tier. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1480 "2024-08-07T22:50:01Z")
I misunderstand the contingency plan: the plan is for Butch and Suni to stay another six months–and only two new astronauts to come up. [NASA Says Boeing Starliner Astronauts May Fly Home On SpaceX In 2025 - Slashdot](https://science.slashdot.org/story/24/08/07/2040203/nasa-says-boeing-starliner-astronauts-may-fly-home-on-spacex-in-2025)? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1481 "2024-08-07T23:01:31Z")
It’s a complicated situation. They still have to decide if Starliner is safe or not. There is still no consensus on this: > **[NASA official acknowledges internal “disagreement” on safety of Starliner return](https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/nasa-official-acknowledges-internal-disagreement-on-safety-of-starliner-return/)** > > "We heard from a lot of folks that had concerns." If it’s deemed safe, then Starliner separates as planned and returns to Earth. But if not, there are a few issues that have to be resolved. There are only two docking ports that can handle Starliner or Dragon, and both are occupied (by Starliner and the Crew-8 Dragon). So a Dragon mission of any kind cannot happen until one of them leaves. But one has to be a lifeboat as well, and that obviously can’t be Starliner. And Starliner can’t leave on its own without a software update. That update will take several weeks. So nothing at all can happen for those weeks, after which, presumably, Starliner will successfully leave the station (with no passengers), opening up the docking port and allowing another Dragon mission. While NASA presumably could line up a special Dragon mission, the current contingency plan is to send up Crew-9 with just two astronauts and suits that’ll fit Butch and Suni. And then they stay for a normal duration crew mission–i.e., another 6 months from the launch. They’ll get back sometime next year. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703.md?page=75)