# The Great Ongoing Space Exploration Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** science-math\ **Created:** [November 16, 2020, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703 "2020-11-16T12:18:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1762 "2024-12-12T19:36:43Z")
They aren’t totally dead. In fact, they just put out this video: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/g-DjBHroA1I/maxresdefault.jpg "Introducing The World's First Ruggedized Satellite") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-DjBHroA1I) Turns out it’s not that difficult to build a (small) satellite that handles 10,000 gees. Doesn’t have to be a solid block of epoxy or anything. Needs a few tweaks here and there for the more fragile components, but nothing too serious. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1763 "2024-12-12T20:56:24Z")
SpinLaunch was also featured prominently in the 11/12/24 episode (S51E15) of NOVA on PBS. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1764 "2024-12-15T03:34:18Z")
Europe is cooked, man. > **[Third Time’s the Charm? ESA Once Again Publishes 60T Rocket Study Call](https://europeanspaceflight.com/third-times-the-charm-esa-once-again-publishes-60t-rocket-study-call/)** > > ESA has published a third iteration of its call for the development of a reusable rocket capable of carrying up to 60 tonnes to LEO. > The European Space Agency has published a third iteration of a proposed pathfinder study for the development of a European reusable super heavy-lift rocket capable of delivering 60 tonnes to low Earth orbit. Not the third design of a reusable rocket. Not the third study into the design of a reusable rocket. The third _proposal_ for a study into the design of a reusable rocket. The ESA makes NASA look like SpaceX. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1765 "2024-12-15T03:37:42Z")
Actually it’s not even that. It’s the third proposal for a study of the _business case_ which could lead into the design of a reusable rocket. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1766 "2024-12-15T04:35:48Z")
60 tons? There is only one active rocket (plus a few in development) left that can pull that capacity. and only one is planned to be fully reusable. The Falcon Heavy can boost 57 tons to orbit in a partially reusable configuration (2/3s of the vehicle expended. 64 tons if all three Stage 1s are recovered. SLS at just under 100 tons in Block 1, 130 tons in Block 2. Fully expendable and ridiculously expensive per launch. In development. Long March 9 & 10. 150 and 70 respectively (I know, doesn’t make sense to me either). Both partially reusable. Both in development. Starship. 150+ tons to LEO. Fully reusable in theory. In development, but farther along than SLS. That’s 3 US and 2 Chinese rockets. Of those, 1 is active and 4 are not yet proven. The one successful vehicle has 10 paying payloads over 10 years (2/yr) and most of those expended the core first stage and all of them expended the 2nd stage. So world-wide, the current market for launches at that weight is (assuming expansion) - 4 per year. Where’s the business case? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1767 "2024-12-15T04:40:30Z")
ESA has concepts of a plan of a business case. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1768 "2024-12-15T04:47:10Z")
Europe wants their own launch capacity and their own version of Starlink. That’s reasonable and justifies some EU subsidies. But the Ariane 6–totally non-reusable, with limited cadence due to the solid motors and other things, and basically a shitty and expensive overall design–is not the vehicle to get them there. A 60 t reusable vehicle is fine. They can just copy almost anyone at this point. Kerosene, methane, doesn’t matter. Figure out first stage reusability first and do second stage later. Return to launch site or drone ship, doesn’t matter. The booster should land vertically, which means at least 7 engines, and if they want to keep dev costs down they should probably go for more. None of these design choices actually matter all that much, which we know because there’s a decent breadth of existing and upcoming vehicles that cover all the bases. Pick something and go for it. Whatever it is, it will be better than the Ariane 6 and the other non-reusable rockets. Just quit with the endless design studies! ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1769 "2024-12-15T04:47:20Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > So world-wide, the current market for launches at that weight is (assuming expansion) - 4 per year. Where’s the business case? In 1943 there was a famous prediction: **“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”** _Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943_ This sounds similar: if there is a truly drastic reduction in space flight costs, then usage will explode. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1770 "2024-12-15T06:20:24Z")
The thing is, we don’t even have to speculate about use cases. We already know what Europe wants, because they’ve said so–they want their own version of Starlink. By its very nature, that means thousands of satellites in LEO, which implies hundreds or thousands of tons per year lift capacity at an affordable price. Great! That means a heavy or superheavy reusable launch vehicle. Anyone with an undergraduate degree in aerospace could bang out a high-level design in a week given a handful of constraints. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1771 "2024-12-15T12:17:44Z")
Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1772 "2024-12-15T14:01:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > In 1943 there was a famous prediction: At this point, the need for _a_ space industry is proven (not true of computers back then). We’re arguing about the need for a specific type of vehicle. Space X is over 100 launches this year with the Falcon 9 (around 8 tons to LEO in the reusable configuration). At 23 satellites per launch, that’s one year to 2000+ in orbit. That’s a working constellation. So rather than jump to 60+ tons, maybe shoot for 20-25 tons to cut constellation build time, but watch the cost! ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1773 "2024-12-15T18:39:58Z")
Perhaps there’s some concern that by the time a brand new rocket goes from proposal to operational, Starship may make smaller launchers obsolete. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1774 "2024-12-16T12:50:34Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > We already know what Europe wants, because they’ve said so–they want their own version of Starlink. By its very nature, that means thousands of satellites in LEO > Envisaging a multi-orbital network of **almost 300 satellites** , Iris� aims to rival US satellite internet service providers such as Elon Musk’s Starlink and Amazon’s Project Kuiper… > > While Iris� counts on a lower number of satellites, its multi-orbital design puts it on par with a constellation of about 1,000 Starlink satellites in terms of performance, EU officials said. > **[EU kickstarts satellite network to rival Musk's Starlink](https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/EU_kickstarts_satellite_network_to_rival_Musks_Starlink_999.html)** > > Brussels, Belgium (AFP) Dec 16, 2024 - The EU's flagship satellite constellation project officially took off Monday, as the bloc signed a concession contract with a European consortium to develop a secure space-based communication system. They don’t need much rocket launch capacity to launch such a small network. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1775 "2024-12-16T13:16:31Z")
I don’t think I’m being _excessively_ cynical to label ESA’s process just a standard jobs / pork program. The goal is to keep ESA and their contractors employed. Delivering a functioning launch vehicle or satellite constellation is a nice-to-have side effect. The need-to-have part is the jobs & tax-funded expenditures in each country via their aerospace companies. They are legitimately trying to deliver a rocket; it’s not a con. But they’re doing it in a way that doesn’t make economic or technological sense given the rest of the space launch ecosystem in year 2025+. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1776 "2024-12-17T05:18:57Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > They don’t need much rocket launch capacity to launch such a small network. Pathetic. Incredible that they’d have such low ambitions. It doesn’t rival Starlink. It doesn’t even rival the number of satellites that SpaceX puts up in two months. They’ll have 30,000 satellites by the time this flies. Yeah, it’s a jobs program. Why can’t they have an ambitious project _and_ a jobs program? I guess they’re gonna need a _fourth_ iteration of a proposed pathfinder study into the business case of a reusable rocket if they can’t even depend on a LEO constellation as an anchor customer. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1777 "2024-12-17T19:07:09Z")
Maybe they’re trying to support European timber companies, too, for all the paper they’re going to need for this latest study. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1778 "2024-12-17T19:13:46Z")
Evidently the thesis is that all human endeavor is made better by being put under the control of a government ministry. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1779 "2024-12-28T05:29:44Z")
A couple news notes: > **[After a 24-second test of its engines, the New Glenn rocket is ready to fly](https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/blue-origin-hot-fires-new-glenn-rocket-setting-up-a-launch-early-next-year/)** > > Also on Friday, the company obtained a launch license for New Glenn launch attempts. Possibly January 6 for the launch. [https://blogs.nasa.gov/parkersolarprobe/2024/12/27/nasas-parker-solar-probe-reports-successful-closest-approach-to-sun/](https://blogs.nasa.gov/parkersolarprobe/2024/12/27/nasas-parker-solar-probe-reports-successful-closest-approach-to-sun/) > Following its [record-breaking closest approach](https://blogs.nasa.gov/parkersolarprobe/2024/12/20/parker-solar-probe-begins-record-setting-closest-approach-to-the-sun/) to the Sun, NASA’s Parker Solar Probe has transmitted a beacon tone back to Earth indicating it’s in good health and operating normally. I suppose it will be several months before we find out if it discovered anything interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiendish_astronaut/32/3295_2.png) [@Fiendish\_Astronaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiendish_Astronaut)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1780 "2024-12-28T13:48:34Z")
The Parker Solar Probe travelled faster than any human made object ever built and has also spent some time deep in the sun’s gravitational field. I wonder how a clock on board would be affected? I know there wouldn’t be much of a time dilation but it would be interesting to know if the computer on board has a clock (presumably so) and whether or not it is noticeable. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703/1781 "2024-12-28T15:34:02Z")
I don’t know if the clock (which it definitely does have) is affected enough. But I’m fairly sure the radio signal from the craft would have its Doppler shift modified by relativistic time dilation, both from velocity and gravity. That is, if it communicated during close approach. But it does not do that, probably because its heat shield is in the way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-space-exploration-thread/925703.md?page=90)