# The Great Phi Theory. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 7, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076 "2001-11-07T23:28:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/121 "2001-11-14T03:00:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hiyruu \* > \*\*I’m going to draw you guys a diagram. \*\* You could just answer our questions. That would be easier. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/122 "2001-11-14T03:18:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dijon Warlock \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Hiyruu \* > > \*\*I’m going to draw you guys a diagram. \*\* > > You could just answer our questions. That would be easier. I for one would like to see the diagram. You know… “a picture is worth a thousand words”. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/123 "2001-11-14T03:51:37Z")
Yeah, but we’ve HAD the 1,000 words already, and they haven’t answered much of anything. **hiyruu:** As I’ve said above, I would not be at all surprised to see **[sym]F[/sym]** show up in a Grand Unified Equation, particularly for the reasons I mentioned. But I’m not quite sure what your purpose is here. If you are trying to convince us of the legitimacy of this theory, you can’t just keep winging out obscurities and ducking direct questions. You asked [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1809924#post1809924): > [@](#): > > **How can I be more specific?** You were TOLD how you could be more specific, but in case others in this thread weren’t clear, let me spell it out for you very carefully: You present the equation: **G=C[sym]F[/sym][sup]n[/sup]**. Please give specific explanations of your terms. Example: > [@](#): > > **G is gravitational force in Newtons (or acceleration in km/s/s, or whatever the heck it’s supposed to be). C is the velocity of light in a vacuum given in km/s (or whatever the heck _it’s_ supposed to be). [sym]F[/sym] is the Phi ratio. N is \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ in \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ units.** Failing that, I see no evidence that you even wish to discuss this rationally. I’m trying to give you a fair shot, here; but you’re making it damned difficult to take you seriously. So you’re going to draw us a diagram, eh? Got advice for you: unless it answers the questions that have been put before you, don’t waste your time. That remark comes dangerously close to a condescending “Do I have to draw you a picture?” comment. I’m not finding myself impressed at this point, but am still hanging onto the benefit of the doubt on principle. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/124 "2001-11-14T03:52:44Z")
It should(in theory anyway) help explain Hiryuu’s theory (though I hypothesize that what Hiryuu has is a hypothesis and not a theory. Of course, that’s just a theory) OR 1 Hiryuu has answered our questions. But the answers, verifying Hiryuu’s theory, have recursed upon themselves. ``` OR 2 A witch turned Hiryuu into a newt. He got better. At present, he is a newt again. This is another fine example of recursing. OR 3 As I've said, Hiryuu's Phi theory is actually theology, not physics. Thus, he believes it's true but he can not provide answers to our questions-he doesn't know them. ``` ---
**Author:** ![DaveW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@DaveW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveW)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/125 "2001-11-14T06:28:02Z")
**scotth** wrote: > [@](#): > > hmmmm… the idea that Gravity which is an acceleration would be measure in Newtons is absurd to begin with. > > Accelerations are always measured in a distance/time/time format. > > Newtons are a measure of force. Period. The implication of that formula, explained that way, is that a snowflake and a semi truck would have the same amount of force holding each to the ground. Ummm… the only things which cause accelerations are forces. Don’t forget **F=ma** , or force equals mass times acceleration. If you know the force, and you know the mass, dividing the former by the latter will give you acceleration ( **F/m=a** ). A force of one newton acting on a one-kilogram object will accelerate that object at 1 meter per second per second, for example. Also, don’t get capital- **G** and little- **g** mixed up. **G** is the _force_ acting between two objects due to gravity, while **g** is the _acceleration_ imparted to objects by _Earth’s_ gravity. The semi has a much larger **G** with the Earth than does the snowflake (by many orders of magnitude), but they’ve both got the same **g** (which would be about 9.8 m/s[sup]2[/sup]). ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/126 "2001-11-14T07:10:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m going to draw you guys a diagram. Just be sure to mention what the heck N means, because that’s the wrench that’s gumming up your whole works. ---
**Author:** ![Hiyruu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hiyruu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiyruu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/127 "2001-11-14T07:15:02Z")
Here is an introductory diagram, to set the groundwork: [http://www.vi2.com/maxForumFiles/49\_Image12.gif](http://www.vi2.com/maxForumFiles/49_Image12.gif) Only in an equi-angular spiral such as this does the phenomenon of scale-invarience occur. The only true equi-angular spiral is the ‘Phi-spiral’, if a spiral is based on any other ratio it will eventually cross itself out. Scale-invariance: As size changes, shape/angle remains the same. So we have the phenomenon of self-refrence going on to infinity. This alone shows Phi to be significant, as it is the only ratio that can scale the infinite. Also I encourage you to read this article on the significance of the golden-spiral, it is very straightforward compared with Dan Winter, and has diagrams also: [http://www.floweroflife.com/spiral01.htm](http://www.floweroflife.com/spiral01.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/128 "2001-11-14T07:34:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m going to draw you guys a diagram. > > Just be sure to mention what the heck N means, because that’s the wrench that’s gumming up your whole works. \*\* Do YOU see a definition for N in that diagram? 'Cause _I_ sure don’t see a definition for N in that diagram. Does ANYBODY see a definition for N in that diagram? Maybe it’s my browser…I’m using Netscape 4.7. Anybody else missing this? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Dijon Warlock** _\*\* > > If you are trying to convince us of the legitimacy of this theory, you can’t just keep winging out obscurities and ducking direct questions. \ You present the equation: G=C[sym]F[/sym][sup]n[/sup]. _Please give specific explanations of your terms._ _ **Hiyruu: WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?!?!?!?!?!?** _. ---
**Author:** ![Spanky\_The\_Dolphin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Spanky\_The\_Dolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spanky_The_Dolphin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/129 "2001-11-14T07:39:09Z")
Does the Great Phi Theory allow for the generation of Tantric Orgone waves, followed by the 100th Monkey event of a mass generation psychic explosion, thereby summoning the Orgasm Leyline Diva, who will open the dimensional passage leading to the Chrystal Millennium, where we will all be reunited with Omega, the god-computer at the end of the universe? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/130 "2001-11-14T07:58:58Z")
Stop hogging the damn spliff. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/131 "2001-11-14T08:00:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dave Stewart \* > \*\*Stop hogging the damn spliff. \*\* I agree. It’s evident from this thread that we’re not all getting our fair share. ---
**Author:** ![Hiyruu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hiyruu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiyruu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/132 "2001-11-14T08:08:06Z")
HERE IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE ‘ **n** ’. [http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html](http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html) Scroll down and click on the link called _the golden spiral_, you will see **phi^n** being used. Jeesh, has anyone here even taken trigonometry or what? ---
**Author:** ![Hiyruu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hiyruu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiyruu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/133 "2001-11-14T08:12:25Z")
Here is what the ‘n’ represents: Again, quoted from the above site: > [@](#): > > Such spirals, where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle, are called equiangular spirals, that is, a line from the origin to any point on the curve always finds (the tangent to) the curve meeting it at the same angle. _where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle_. ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/134 "2001-11-14T08:57:16Z")
_sniff_ _sniff-sniff_ Anybody besides me getting a whiff of dead horse? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hiyruu \* > \*\*HERE IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE ‘ **n** ’. > > [http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html\*\*](http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html**) REALLY, now? And how’s that, exactly? Looks to me like what they’re constructing is an equation that describes all the points on a Fibonacci spiral, and the final equation is given as: r = [sym]F[/sym][sup]2[sym]q[/sym]/[sym]P[/sym][/sup]. No **n** in evidence. Besides which, it says nothing about what **n** represents IN YOUR EQUATION, and I’ve noticed you haven’t either…_STILL_. > [@](#): > > \*\*Scroll down and click on the link called _the golden spiral_, you will see **phi^n** being used. > > Jeesh, has anyone here even taken trigonometry or what? \*\* Scroll up and click on the links to any page on this thread, and you will see **[sym]F[/sym][sup]n[/sup]** being used. BFD. It still doesn’t answer the freaking question. Jeesh, has anyone here even taken remedial literacy or what? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/135 "2001-11-14T09:08:01Z")
Wellll…that’s what I get for not refreshing the thread whilst composing. You still have not answered the question of what **n** measures. Near as I can decipher you at this point, you seem to be of the opinion that **[sym]F[/sym][sup]n[/sup]** is somehow representative of an equalangular spiral. It isn’t. The equation **r = [sym]F[/sym][sup]2[sym]q[/sym]/[sym]P[/sym][/sup]** is, however. Again, no **n**. Again, not part of your equation. Again, you have not explained the definitions of your equation’s terms. I’m starting to suspect that you don’t understand any of this yourself, but it instinctively sounds good to you, so you think you might be onto something. You might very well be. But it’s pretty clear to me at this point that you’re a long way from being able to ascertain that. ---
**Author:** ![Hiyruu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/7bcc69/32.png) [@Hiyruu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiyruu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/136 "2001-11-14T09:08:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dijon Warlock \* > \*\*_sniff_ > > _sniff-sniff_ > > Anybody besides me getting a whiff of dead horse? > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Hiyruu \* > > \*\*HERE IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE ‘ **n** ’. > > > > [http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html\*\*](http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi2DGeomTrig.html**) > > REALLY, now? And how’s that, exactly? Looks to me like what they’re constructing is an equation that describes all the points on a Fibonacci spiral, and the final equation is given as: r = [sym]F[/sym][sup]2[sym]q[/sym]/[sym]P[/sym][/sup]. No **n** in evidence. Besides which, it says nothing about what **n** represents IN YOUR EQUATION, and I’ve noticed you haven’t either…_STILL_. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*Scroll down and click on the link called _the golden spiral_, you will see **phi^n** being used. > > > > Jeesh, has anyone here even taken trigonometry or what? \*\* > > Scroll up and click on the links to any page on this thread, and you will see **[sym]F[/sym][sup]n[/sup]** being used. BFD. It still doesn’t answer the freaking question. > > Jeesh, has anyone here even taken remedial literacy or what? :rolleyes: \*\* Dont be a pratt, you asked me to explain the ‘n’ part of the equation, so I did. Here it is again: _where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle._ ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/137 "2001-11-14T09:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hiyruu \* > Dont be a pratt, you asked me to explain the ‘n’ part of the equation, so I did. No you didn’t. > [@](#): > > Here it is again: _where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle._ \*\* So which is n: the distance, the origin, the distance from the origin, the power, the angle or the power of the angle? Or are you saying that G = C [sym]F[/sym][sup]d^[sym]F[/sym][/sup]. It still doesn’t make any sense, but I think we’re within striking distanc of getting a staement of what n is. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/138 "2001-11-14T09:25:10Z")
Okay, okay, okay, I’ll simplify this to the most basic mathematical terms for Mr. Hiyruu. Forget all the crap about “what N represents” and such. Just tell me what units it uses. Meters? Seconds? Newtons? Joules? Watts? Meters per second, or per second squared, even? Pounds per square inch? Donuts per drunken orgiastic mutant slothman? Amperes? Ohms? AU? ---
**Author:** ![Dijon\_Warlock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9a28c/32.png) [@Dijon\_Warlock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dijon_Warlock)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/139 "2001-11-14T09:26:20Z")
Well, it seems we’re doing a bit of cross posting at this point, but I will try to avoid prattishness and clarify a bit more if I can. You (finally) say **n** is “where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle.” That is, with all due respect, a patently absurd response. Look, I’m not trying to be difficult here (although I’m seriously wondering about you–faking it well, if not), but you’ve got four terms in your equation: G, which is evidently _something_ to do with gravity (although you won’t say what for some reason); C, which is evidently _something_ to do with light (although you won’t say what for some reason); [sym]F[/sym], which as we all know by now is the Golden Ratio; and n, which must have a quantitative value related to some real-world manifestation. Do you get that?!? It’s a NUMBER. You cannot define it as some vague condition of “where the distance from the origin is a constant to the power of the angle.” That’s an EQUATION. **d=[sym]q[/sym][sup]d[/sup]** where **d** is the distance from the origin and **[sym]q[/sym]** is the angle from the origin (origin of WHAT, by the way?). So what you are telling me is that your Grand Unified Equation could be rewritten as \*\*G=C[sym]F[/sym][sup]d=[sym]q[/sym][sup]d[/sup]\*\*\*\*. Do you begin to see the problem there? YET??? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076/140 "2001-11-14T14:12:13Z")
I can’t believe that I didn’t see this before Hiryuu!The explanation is so simple! The truth is this-Hiryuu is far more skilled at doing in-character rants than I am. This whole Phi nonsense has been a one person inside joke. Your really had me going there. For a while I thought you actually believed this Phi crap. Bravo! Now remove your mask and take a bow! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-phi-theory/92076.md?page=8)