# The Great Pro-War Massacree Thread (and General Meltdown) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 25, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019 "2004-01-25T18:07:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/61 "2004-01-26T03:58:46Z")
> [@London\_Calling](#): > > What the hell are you talking about “everyone”. That’s because you were utterly blind to any other possible explanation; you swallowed the Bush story hook, line and sinker and put your fingers in your ears from day one. > > There is one enormous, neon lit sign, approx. 3,000’ by 1,000’ above the whole Iraqi war issue. It’s this for the hard of grasping; if one is interested in discerning the true undercurrents of an Intel influenced political policy, one has to distinguish between raw intelligence data and the \*politicisation \* (process) that Governments subject that raw intelligence data to; in other words understand, for Gods sake, that the Intelligence community is subject to the Government of the day and not separate from it. > > Thus the Intelligence community does as its fucking told so, for example, if its told to keep its mouth shut, it keeps its mouth shut. At least officially. > > [Here’s a beginning, start joining some dots up:](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,966701,00.html) As corroboraton from the American side of the pond, take a look at the CIA’s October 2002 assessment of [Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction Programs](http://www.odci.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm). It’s _very_ strongly worded for as little as it turned out the US actually _knew_ about Iraqi WMD’s: > [@](#): > > Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of UN restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade. Skepticism about the analytical purity of this report appeared _immediately_: > [@](#): > > Senior Bush administration officials are pressuring CIA analysts to tailor their assessments of the Iraqi threat to help build a case against Saddam Hussein, intelligence and congressional sources said. > In what sources described as an escalating “war,” top officials at the Pentagon and elsewhere have bombarded CIA analysts with criticism and calls for revisions on such key questions as whether Iraq has ties to the Al Qaeda terrorist network, sources said. > The sources stressed that CIA analysts—who are supposed to be impartial—are fighting to resist the pressure. But they said analysts are increasingly resentful of what they perceive as efforts to contaminate the intelligence process. [CIA Feels Heat on Iraq Data (Oct 2002)](http://www.latimes.com/la-na-cia11oct11,0,2360915.story) The analysts at the CIA can’t be universally stupid. Some of them must at least rise to the level of the Doper’s who were bitching about the poor quality of Iraq WMD intelligence during the run up to war. Now that it turns out that there was no secret and damning proof of Saddam’s weapons and weapons program related activities, it’s perfectly reasonable to ask why those CIA skeptics were never heard from. If anyone has a more plausible explanation for that than Bush’s agendaization of the nations intelligence apparatus, I’m sure that we’d _all_ like to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/62 "2004-01-26T04:01:24Z")
Thanks for the pitting. Really. It’s an honor to be noticed. OTOH, one thing you might not have considered is that I’ve made a lot of stupid predictions that haven’t come true yet. When I say “predictions” I mean sometimes it’s just an interesting article. Specifically I mentioned several articles that suggested the weapons were smuggled to Syria early on. Given Israel’s interest in getting Syria out of Lebanon, I chalked that one up to Mossad propaganda. Really, even I like wacky conspiracy theories involving Mossad, especially if it just means floating a news story. Nobody gets shot in the head with a .22. Also, I’ve made a lot of correct predictions. Basically, I was typing angrily. I’m so sick of the “one issue for war” argument run simultaneously to the “planning it since the Gulf War” argument. I’ve been for knocking off Saddam since I didn’t favor knocking him off the first time. I thought the UN, the no-fly zones, or GHWB would handle it. Boy, was I wrong! Hearing about the slaughters from the rebellions we encouraged, but didn’t support, the failed sanctions, the corrupe oil-for-food program that led to starvation through Saddam’s typical savagry, I pretty much decided to work from what I’ll call the Nuremburg Principle – if you kill enough people I’ll support “pre-emptive” war. I was ahead of the curve on that one. Saddam was my learning curve. First it was the Iran War (I didn’t know he had an execution party the day he took office), then I heard about rumors of torture. Not uncommon for that region. The news really picked up about the time of the Kuwaiti invasion – including the armored incursion into Saudi Arabia the US demolished – and the missiles shot at Israel. That was great video, poor Jewish children huddled in gas masks being asked not to shoot back. That made a real impression on me. Then the barracks was blown up. Then you have the Iraqi links to the first WTC. I was saying, um, “Bill?” Then again in 1998. Well, fast forward through dozens of acts of terror from the barracks bombing(s). I can’t keep them all straight any more. Then NYWTC x 2, the Penatgon, Cole, embassies, you name it. The one thing they all had in common was this interlinked shadowy world of state-sponsored terrorism. One view was to release the legal hounds. That worked in some cases. If the bulk of the problem is manufactured overseas, funded by states, and imported it seems pretty unlikely that even the FBI – given the domestic emphasis – was going to be able to do much about Saudi, Iraqi, Iranian, and Syrian funding. Nor were the cops going to shut down the terrorist training camps the functioned in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran, et al for years. So, in conclusion, war against people that want to kill you is not a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/63 "2004-01-26T04:02:37Z")
> [@GoHeels](#): > > With that said, I remain deathly afraid that the Democratic nominee will abandon Iraq to its fate and operate as if we were still living on 9/10/01. There’s no going back to that date, although the left seems to think we can. > > Based on a number of reasons - including the failure to find WMDs and how he has conducted the post-war Iraq environment - my support for Bush is eroding. But if the Dems put forward a turd (“cough” Howard Dean “cough”), then I’ll hold my nose and vote for the devil I know. Let’s hope the Dems nominate someone who’s credible to the middle and understands that we’re in a fight for our lives with certain forces of darkness. I’ll start listening to John Kerry. The reality (sad for some) is that in the historical record, Democrats -usually- do follow the war plans of the outgoing republican presidents, some could say: more zealously, since they in turn get accused of being soft against the enemy. Heck, even if Dean by any chance is nominated and then win, I do think that whatever plan is set by the Bush admin -regarding the exit strategy of Iraq- it will be followed by the Democratic president to the bitter end. The difference (important IMO) though, is that whatever democrat gets in, he will get more diplomatic openings than the current turd, and so an exit will be easier then for the US. Not to mention that the continuing war against terror still needs more international cooperation (like international airplane security) Related to the OP: One thing that should not go to the memory hole, is that Bush -for the Iraq information- depended mostly on the OSP: > **[Special investigation: The spies who pushed for war on Iraq](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jul/17/iraq.usa)** > > Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force. A group that “enhanced”, as Condolesa Rice would said, the information at hand. I also do remember that some reports mentioned that that enhanced info, is what congress got on the eve to granting the permission to go to war. [Speculation time] Here, I have the gut feeling that the control of info to congress was changed right after 9/11 due in part to Orrin Hatch’s big mouth, so the result was that congress had a very controlled pipeline of info coming to them, regarding items like Iraq. [/Speculation time] What I am getting to, is that the president may plausibly deny that he was lying. However, so far, it seems that this president choose to trust partisan information sources, and the thing that SHOULD be a scandal is that that info was not only used by the president, but by congress. While the OSP office was disbanded after the war. (Mission accomplished as Joshua Marshall I think once said) I do think that our intelligence was compromised outside the white house too. Kay is almost getting it: > **[Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines](https://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=%2Fap%2F20040126%2Fap_on_re_mi_ea%2Fus_iraq_weapons&cid=540&ncid=716)** > > The latest news and headlines from Yahoo! News. Get breaking news stories and in-depth coverage with videos and photos. > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - U.S. intelligence agencies need to explain why their research indicated Iraq (news - web sites) possessed banned weapons before the American-led invasion, says the outgoing top U.S. inspector, who now believes Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) had no such arms. > > “I don’t think they exist,” David Kay said Sunday. “The fact that we found so far the weapons do not exist — we’ve got to deal with that difference and understand why.” > > Kay’s remarks on National Public Radio reignited criticism from Democrats, who ignored his cautions that the failure to find weapons of mass destruction was “not a political issue.” > > “It’s an issue of the capabilities of one’s intelligence service to collect valid, truthful information,” Kay said. Asked whether President Bush (news - web sites) owed the nation an explanation for the gap between his warnings and Kay’s findings, Kay said: “I actually think the intelligence community owes the president, rather than the president owing the American people.” The real question should be: Do you think this president and the current majority in Congress will investigate thoroughly what happened, regarding the OSP and the intelligence failures? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/64 "2004-01-26T04:30:22Z")
Sam, if you say “EVERYONE” believed there were WMD one more time I’m going to vomit. You said it once and I couldn’t believe how someone so articulate could be so utterly, blindly stupid. When you said it again I was flabbergasted. Can you honestly not see how stupid it is to say such a thing? To me, admitting “I was duped” would not go far enough. It is hard to defraud an honest man. It is easy to defraud someone whose greed blinds their judgement. I find it hard to believe that if a Democratic government threw up the wall of spin that Bush’s government did, Sam and his fellow travellers would have any difficulty showing scepticism and picking apart the lies. “I was told that I was being duped, I was pointed at evidence I was being duped, but I was nonetheless duped because I refused to believe that I was being duped” might come close. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/65 "2004-01-26T04:50:16Z")
An entire thread for The Usual Weasels? I admire your dedication and patience, **Svinlesha** , but isn’t this rather like bailing out the Titanic with a 5-gallon bucket? Their ship has sunk. Only God and Robert Ballard can save them now, and God has no patience for those bearing false witness. ---
**Author:** ![presidebt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c37758/32.png) [@presidebt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/presidebt)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/66 "2004-01-26T06:13:54Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Let’s just wait and see who comes out on the right side of history on this one. In the meantime, perhaps we should start some threads detailing the predictions of those of you who declared that there were going to be **a)** tens of thousands of casualties, **b)** that the ‘Arab Street’ would rise up, **c)** that the war would throw the middle east into chaos, **d)** that it was going to be a quagmire of Vietnamesque proportions, etc. ad nauseum. > > You guys were wrong about almost all your predictions, so I guess it would make sense that you’d cling so hard to the WMD issue. It must suck to have all your other rugs pulled out from under you. a) Oh contraire mon frair. According to this site, there have been an “[estimated 10,800 and 15,100 Iraqis were killed in the war](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm).” this number does not even include the 75 coalition soldiers or the 512 US soldiers. Additionally, [this site indicates that there were an estimated 10-12,000 Iraqi combat deaths in the air campaign and as many as 10,000 casualties in the ground war](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/death.html). b) & c) Another false claim. Of course, only [100,000 Iraqis](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-01-20-us-un-iraq_x.htm) protested in Baghdad. This next one is, admittedly, from last year, but they are cites from March or later, so it falls in the timeframe of the war. I never cite FOX, but maybe this will help our more conservative brethren begin to accept the inevitable reality that the “Arab Street” is angry, and has risen up: [\ FOX on Arab protests](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81822,00.html). As for the “chaos” claim, Afghanistan & Iraq are in utter chaos, and Pakastan isn’t exactly a case study in stability. Isreal/Palestine? Just a little chaotic, wouldn’t you say? Let’s see, Syria isn’t chaotic? Saudi Arabia is well on its way to political instability. It might just be me, but the already chaotic situation in the Middle East, which Bush did admittedly inherit, has been made worse by implimentation of the Bush Doctrine. And it shows no sign of slowing. d) Well, that remains to be seen. So far, there are a few similarities, [such as](http://www.fff.org/freedom/1190a.asp): > [@](#): > > The Vietnam War tore this nation apart like few wars in American history. Those who supported the war claimed that it was being fought to prevent communist aggression. Those who resisted the war contended that it constituted an illegitimate interference with the affairs of foreign nations. > > Those who supported the war were accused of being warmongers. Those who resisted the war were accused of being unpatriotic. and > [@](#): > > With Vietnam, the American politicians and bureaucrats chose to disregard this Constitutional limitation on their power and sent 50,000 men to their deaths without a Congressional declaration of war. No matter how honorable their intentions, no matter how well-motivated, the politicians and bureaucrats had no right to break the Constitutional restriction which controlled their conduct regarding war. Now we’re nowhere near 50, 000 (and I hope we never are), but the rest stands, IMO. * * * In conclusion, to me it’s not a matter of I was right/you were wrong, it’s a matter of consistently spouting false information and a seeming inability on the part of some (not singling out Sam here) to reflect, analyze and conclude in a meaningful way. That does not mean _my way_. What it means is that it appears, in my limited experience, that the conservative mindset is generally selective and reactionary. However, I am gratified to see the doubt expressed openly by some Bush supporters recently, though it remains to be seen if that translates to a new president and a really strong national comment that we’re not going to take it, and to prove our ideals, enshrined in the Constitution, are not hollow and/or irrelevent. Anna Belle ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/67 "2004-01-26T07:08:30Z")
> [@Sofa King](#): > > I think that dramatically contradicts your statement about what intelligence services worldwide thought about those WMDs before the war, but I concede that my story is anecdotal and completely unverifiable. True, but Sam would do just as well, much better even, to take the time to watch [The Truth Uncovered](http://www.truthuncovered.com/), in which many extremely credible, informed people reveal that his desperately-clung-to-belief that gee, \* everybody thought so! \*is absolutely, clearly, unquestionably false. Flat out wrong. At best, mistaken in the extreme. But we don’t want to take away his blankie. > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Sam** : > > **SPOOFE** :Maybe. This is an open thread. Feel free to provide examples of those sorts of statements from the anti-war side. > \*\* bingo. We’ve had several “Well, you guys were mean, too!” remarks. Still not a single example. > [@](#): > > \*\* But my patience is wearing thin. And statements like:…wear it thinner, _especially_ given how profoundly wrong the “pro-war types” were prior to the invasion. And the thing I’m beginning to really wonder is, **Why in hell should I – or anyone else, really – take _you_ (and your ilk) seriously, anymore?** You shouldn’t. And the smug, relentless repitition of empty, meaningless remarks that are wildly inappropriate to the given circumstances, that mean to marginalize the opposing viewpoint, as though by incantation alone, is really starting to look creepy and sad. Get a new schtick, people. The old one isn’t working anymore. The people are awake. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/68 "2004-01-26T07:12:14Z")
ALmost forgot… I am reminded by this thread of all the conservative voices that have grown quiet. I think the reason the SDMB may be currently seen as “trending left” is because so many rightys are too embarrassed to show up here. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/69 "2004-01-26T08:25:00Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > ALmost forgot… I am reminded by this thread of all the conservative voices that have grown quiet. I think the reason the SDMB may be currently seen as “trending left” is because so many rightys are too embarrassed to show up here. You know, **Stoid** , you sure do know how to pick a fight. Had it been anyone but you who wrote that little taunt above, I would have come in here six guns blazing. Anyway, the reason why the conservative crowd doesn’t come in here anymore is not because we’re too embarassed to show up, it’s because most of us have no desire to throw ourselves in waves at the liberal guns trying to defend what is now quite obviously indefensible. Most of us just sit back, correct your minor factual errors, clear a few things up here and there, and stand back so you guys can have your 15,000 threads of self-congratulation. See, most of us already know what’s up. The ones that don’t by now never will. So starting 10 of these type threads every day is overkill to the point where we don’t even look anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/70 "2004-01-26T11:36:25Z")
**GoHeels** : I second **Avalonian** and commend you on your open-mindedness. > [@](#): > > - And while I won’t go so far as to state “Bush lied,” the failure to find WMDs seriously undermines this administration’s credibility, and handcuffs the nation’s ability to take on rogue nations. For that reason, my vote in November is now, once again, in play, because if Bush is unable to confront our enemies due to this failure, then Bush’s value drops considerably in my eyes. > > (That’s as close as I’ll come to saying “I WAS DUPED.”) ;-)\* On the other hand, to my knowledge, you never publicly promised to admit it. > [@](#): > > - With that said, I remain deathly afraid that the Democratic nominee will abandon Iraq to its fate and operate as if we were still living on 9/10/01. There’s no going back to that date, although the left seems to think we can.\* I don’t think you’ll have to worry about that, because I suspect Bush will do everything in his power to get the fuck out of Iraq before the election. There’s a June deadline for withdrawal at the present, you know. **Beagle** : > [@](#): > > _Thanks for the pitting. Really. It’s an honor to be noticed._ No prob. However, not to bum you out or anything, but you may have noticed that my list of quotes doesn’t include you. In the threads I have access to you were actually pretty noncommittal, you cagey bastard. Alas! If only the search function was working! Still, let us give credit where credit’s due: it was your comment about Syria that proved to be the last straw. You may proudly proclaim that you were the one who caused me to lose my composure. Specifically, this statement: > [@](#): > > _Man, am I ever going to wish the search function was working when Syria coughs up the Iraqi WMDs, or they are used on France for the “headscarf” ban._ I mean seriously, Jesus H. motherfucking Christ on a goddamned fucking pogo stick. Are you really that stupid, or are you simply hoping that I’m that stupid? Can you give me one reason – any reason at all – to believe that Syria would accept “WMDs” from Iraq, either on the eve of or during the war, outside of your masturbatory neo-con fantasies of grandeur and moral righteousness? Because, seriously, I really want to know – what the fuck do you base that steaming pile of crapulous assertions on? Tell me! A **Drudge** report, maybe? Something hot off the wire over at **Debka**? I mean, look – I’ve been polite, haven’t I? Haven’t I been polite? Haven’t I shown my debating opponents over the last year a great deal of respect? Haven’t I been willing to meet their arguments unflinchingly, no weaseling, no name-calling (with perhaps a minor exception or two in the heat of the moment)? In fact, haven’t I been a goddamn near perfect gentleman about this shit? But you tell me – when does it stop? Does it stop at all? After the US invades Syria, only to find it devoid of “WMDs,” do you plan to simply pick some other little piece of shit third-world rat-hole to bomb into oblivion? Do you really think that the majority of people are too stupid to see through this ridiculousness, or is it just you? Seriously, I really want to know. Are you really so stupid that you would actually believe Iraq has hidden its “WMDs” in Syria? For the love of Christ! And then, to top it off, you follow up with this: > [@](#): > > - Moreover, nobody I know ever suggested that actual stockpiles of WMDs were the real reason to attack Iraq. The real reasons are quite obvious to even a half-assed student of modern history. I’d like to think I’m at least that.\* Oh yeah, that’s classic. Yup, we anti-war types are just making it up as we go along, aren’t we? You don’t remember Bush’s speech in Cincinnati, the SOTU, the NIE, the almost endless list of assertions made by various members of the administration in the run up to the war, Powell’s presentation to the UN…. Gee, to think that I’m not even a “half-assed” student of modern history. Seriously – did someone drop you on your head as a child? Yeah, stupefying is the word all right. > [@](#): > > - Basically, I was typing angrily.\* I wonder what in the Holy Fuck you have to be angry about. You got your precious little war, didn’t you? > [@](#): > > - Hearing about the slaughters from the rebellions we encouraged, but didn’t support, the failed sanctions, the corrupe oil-for-food program that led to starvation through Saddam’s typical savagry, I pretty much decided to work from what I’ll call the Nuremburg Principle – if you kill enough people I’ll support “pre-emptive” war. I was ahead of the curve on that one. Saddam was my learning curve.\* What an incoherent paragraph. I’m going for “too stupid to know the difference,” me. And then, from the same thread, total fucking crap, like this: > [@](#): > > \ ***originally posted by Millum:** > > Don’t Dirk! Please don’t leave. You misunderstood. This is NOT a debate. A debate is where open-minded people exchange their points of view. This thread is a gang bang and you are the babe. Listen, these people don’t hate Bush. They hate you. They hate you because you are right and they have been proven wrong and all they have left is their vengeful rhetoric. Pity them.\* I mean, lame? It goes beyond lame. It’s cosmically lame. It’s the archetype of lame, rising up from the collective unconscious. We’re talking primordially lame, here. And while we’re at it let’s not forget the big cheeses as well – the guys this rotten collection of masturbating mental midgets continue to support. Like George W. Bush, that contemptuous frat-boy dullard. Here’s an example: after months of inspections, Kay managed to locate a single vial of C. botulinum Okra B. virus in the refrigerator of an Iraqi scientist. Not even a vial of the toxin the virus produces, mind you, just the virus itself – a standard product in most biotech laboratories. It had been sitting there since 1993 and, according to specialists, had actually been ordered from the US during the 1980s. Also, no country on earth has ever succeeded in weaponizing that particular strain: Iraqi bio-weapons research prior to 1991 had focused on botulinum A., mimicking US and Soviet programs. So then, up pops dork-wad and publicly states, with his face hanging right there off the side of his neck, that this single vial of “deadly virus” was **proof** that “Saddam was a danger to the world.” As if the invasion had thereby been justified by the discovery of a vial of frikkin Botox. You know, my Swedish wife read that, looked at me with pity, shook her head and said, “Pathetic.” But this goes beyond pathetic, when the fucking president of the United States spews nonsense of this order. It’s like pathetic[SUP]100[/SUP] x stupefying [SUP]100[/SUP]. It’s so much pathetic that it’s patheticness could stretch to the universe and fill up the black hole in space. And yet still you support him. You do realize that your boy is making y’all look like pack of nature-born fools, don’t you? That he’s successfully run America’s already poor reputation into the ground, thanks in large part to your mindless, gibbering support? Or take this one. Cheney sent out Christmas cards last year to all his acquaintances in the international community. At the recent conference in Davos, Switzerland, he held a talk, and afterwards the moderator (Klaus Schwab, another business big-wig) wondered a little about the card’s inscription. It was the following quote from Benjamin Franklin: > [@](#): > > _“And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an **empire can rise** without His aid?”_ Schwab suggested that the card’s message might be slightly off-putting to non-Americans. What was that ninny Cheney smoking, I wonder? And do you know what he did, the lying scumbag? _He blamed his wife_. Well, anyway, as you can see, I’ve finally arrived at the “general meltdown” part of the thread. And I must say, it feels pretty good. I needed it, I think. **Airman** : To be clear, I do not count you among the targets of the above rant. It is directed towards, as you say, the ones who don’t know what’s up and, apparently, never will. On the other hand, I do wonder what the hell this is supposed to mean: > [@](#): > > - Anyway, the reason why the conservative crowd doesn’t come in here anymore is not because we’re too embarassed to show up, it’s because most of us have no desire to throw ourselves in waves at the liberal guns trying to defend what is now quite obviously indefensible.\* Perhaps you have an example of me attempting to defend “_what is now obviously indefensible_”? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/71 "2004-01-26T11:59:17Z")
Just a minor thing, **Mr. Svinlesha**. I think you misinterpreted **Airman** : > [@Mr. Svinlesha](#): > > **Airman** : > > To be clear, I do not count you among the targets of the above rant. It is directed towards, as you say, the ones who don’t know what’s up and, apparently, never will. > > On the other hand, I do wonder what the hell this is supposed to mean: > > > [@](#): > > > > Anyway, the reason why the conservative crowd doesn’t come in here anymore is not because we’re too embarassed to show up, it’s because most of us have no desire to throw ourselves in waves at the liberal guns trying to defend what is now quite obviously indefensible. > > Perhaps you have an example of me attempting to defend “_what is now obviously indefensible_”? I don’t think he was saying that _you_ were defending the indefensible, but rather that the “conservative crowd” had no wish to defend the indefensible. OTOH, **Airman** also claims that the conservative crowd doesn’t even look at these “15,000 threads of self-congratulation” anymore, which is kinda strange. I guess they all just post without looking. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/72 "2004-01-26T12:07:25Z")
**Desmo** : > [@](#): > > - I don’t think he was saying that you were defending the indefensible, but rather that the “conservative crowd” had no wish to defend the indefensible.\* Oh. I see. Ahem. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/73 "2004-01-26T12:46:00Z")
**Sam Stone:** \*In the meantime, perhaps we should start some threads detailing the predictions of those of you […] \* Go right ahead **Sam**. I’ll be happy to admit anything I was wrong about and apologize for anything I was rude about. I believe I’m already on record somewhere on these boards as admitting that I was wrong in my estimate of how long the full-scale conflict in Afghanistan would take. (I wish I had been equally wrong in my predictions that one year later, we still wouldn’t have captured bin Laden and we still wouldn’t have a stable and effective government in the country. And I’m getting positively sick and tired of not being wrong in my pessimism about the Iraq war.) ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/74 "2004-01-26T13:30:16Z")
> [@Beagle](#): > > Well, fast forward through dozens of acts of terror from the barracks bombing(s). I can’t keep them all straight any more. Then NYWTC x 2, the Penatgon, Cole, embassies, you name it. The one thing they all had in common was this interlinked shadowy world of state-sponsored terrorism. Remind me again what SH had to do with the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, the Cole, etc. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/75 "2004-01-26T13:38:22Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Remind me again what SH had to do with the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, the Cole, etc. Well duh, they’re “interlinked”, in a “shadowy” way. You know, just like munchkins and oompa loompas are, the creepy little fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/76 "2004-01-26T13:52:16Z")
> [@](#): > > and stand back so you guys can have your 15,000 threads of self-congratulation. Does that mean you admit we were right, Airman? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/77 "2004-01-26T14:24:32Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > But the fact is, EVERYONE thought there were WMD there. Stop fucking saying this. Many of us were not at all convinced that SH was an _imminent_ threat. ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/78 "2004-01-26T14:29:49Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > The fact is that someone blew it and thousands of Iraqi citizens are now dead or mutilated because of this (to say nothing of the unexploded cluster bombs that will be killing and crippling people for decades to come (they are still hurting people in Cambodia to this day, did you know))). The fact also is that those of us that were against this war from the beginning were mocked, flamed and had our patriotism questioned and were all but accused of siding with the terrorists. Enough already. So your saying we should have given Saddam another decade or so to get his numbers up? Perhaps another generation of jailed, tortured, and mass buried Iraqis under the care of Saddam’s sons? I don’t particularly like the war this war was spun. I really don’t like how unprepared for its aftermath we have been. But don’t try to spin the blood toll on me. Another generation of misery under the Baath party would make sure that the number of corpses and ruined lives won’t support your arguement. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/79 "2004-01-26T14:50:55Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > So your saying we should have given Saddam another decade or so to get his numbers up? Perhaps another generation of jailed, tortured, and mass buried Iraqis under the care of Saddam’s sons? Yes. Believe it or not there are far worse alternatives to this. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2004, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019/80 "2004-01-26T14:57:46Z")
> [@Blackclaw](#): > > So your saying we should have given Saddam another decade or so to get his numbers up? Perhaps another generation of jailed, tortured, and mass buried Iraqis under the care of Saddam’s sons? I don’t see any similar movement towards, say, Burma or Zimbabwe, where the repression continues unabated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-pro-war-massacree-thread-and-general-meltdown/226019.md?page=5)