# "The Great," "The Lionhearted," "The Terrible," and "The Conqueror", etc. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 20, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461 "2005-03-20T20:09:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/21 "2005-03-21T07:32:29Z")
Epithets come to us at least in part from ancient times (Homeric at least . . . I’m trying to remember if Gilgamesh used any and I can’t find my copy), the use of which was a technique wherein regular descriptors were added on to names, often to fulfill metric needs for oral poetry. Grey-eyed Athena, and, Wiley Odysseus, are two more common epithets (rendered into English, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/22 "2005-03-21T11:58:42Z")
I think this is a fine tradition that deserves reviving. How 'bout these for starters? Bush the Benighted Rush the Unread Stern the Stentorious Clinton the Carpetbagger Whoopi the Whiney Rosseanne the Rude Michael the Maladjusted ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/23 "2005-03-21T12:29:09Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > You’ll find, however, that the vast majority of them were purely descriptive, not adulatory. I can think of one that was downright sarcastic. A certain Harald back in saga times declared that he wouldn’t comb or trim his hair or beard until he was king of a united Norway. This took some time, though he eventually made it, and according to the sagas he kept his word. They call him Harald Hårfagre, or Harald the Fair-haired 😛 The first Christian king of Denmark (and parts of Norway) was called Harald Blåtann, or Harald Bluetooth. Exactly why, no one knows, but it’s worth noting that in Old Norse the word for “blue” could be used to describe many dark colors, including black. Maybe that should really be Harald Blackteeth… it’s not like it was easy to find a dentist in those days. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/24 "2005-03-21T15:06:00Z")
The most common term among those who study names and naming is _surname_ (“additional name”). However, this term can be ambiguous because in Britain, the word “surname” is commonly used to mean “family name.” The reason for this is that many family names originated as a kind of surname, whether occupational (“Taylor”), descriptive (“Black”), locator (“Underhill”), or patronymic (“Johnson”). But, technically, a surname is not passed on unchanged from parent to child. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/25 "2005-03-21T15:23:27Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > However, this term can be ambiguous because in Britain, the word “surname” is commonly used to mean “family name.” Not just in Britain. In my neck of the USA, a last name or family name is also called a surname, and a first name is commonly referred to as a “given” or “Christian” name. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/26 "2005-03-21T15:44:18Z")
It’s curious that modern day survival of this sort of thing seems to be for professional athletes and mafia figures. We also tend to use it as a middle name, rather than at the end: Vinnie “The Chin” Gigante Kenny “The Snake” Stabler and I nominate as the very worst appellation for a football player: Lester “The Molester” Hayes. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/27 "2005-03-21T16:22:46Z")
The Seleucid king Antiochus IV, perhaps best known for his dustup with the Maccabees, dubbed himself ( as his dynasty was want to do ) _Theos Epiphanes_, or “God Manifest”. He even had it inscribed on his coins. His subjects however paodied that little self-apellation and referred to him as _Epimanes_. “Madman” :p. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/28 "2005-03-21T16:29:45Z")
And your post, **Tamerlane** brings up perhaps the most famous unflattering surname – Timur-i-Leng --\> Timur the Lame (also Tamerlane or Tambourlaine) Duke William of Normandy/King William I of England has several – - William of Normandy - William the Bastard - William the Conqueror ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/29 "2005-03-21T18:39:34Z")
**Bippy the Beardless**? ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/30 "2005-03-21T19:09:33Z")
There’s a huge list of European rulers [here](http://homepage.mac.com/crowns/coronations.html) , from I’ve plucked a few: Sancho III the Desired (CASTILE/LEÓN) Lulach the Simple (SCOTLAND) Emmanuel II the Unfortunate (PORTUGAL) Louis X/I the Quarreler (FRANCE/NAVARRE) And my two favorites: Vlad VII the Drowned (WALLACHIA) Ladislaus the Posthumous (BOHEMIA) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/31 "2005-03-21T19:30:18Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > How about Carlos el Hechizado (Carlos the Bewitched)? (Actually, that might have been Spain, not Castile.) Right. Spain. Last o’ the Hapsburgs (d.1700), and about time, too. Boy was a physical and mental mess. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/32 "2005-03-21T19:46:50Z")
> [@flodnak](#): > > The first Christian king of Denmark (and parts of Norway) was called Harald Blåtann, or Harald Bluetooth. Exactly why, no one knows … I thought it was because he was king of all the LAN. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/33 "2005-03-21T21:04:16Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Duke William of Normandy/King William I of England has several – > > - William of Normandy > - William the Bastard > - William the Conqueror I’m particularly fond of his father, Duke Robert I, aka **Robert the Magnificient** AND **Robert the Devil**. Talk about your contradictions ;). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/34 "2005-03-21T21:33:06Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I’m particularly fond of his father, Duke Robert I, aka **Robert the Magnificient** AND **Robert the Devil**. Talk about your contradictions ;). If I’m not mistaken, there’s a fragrant flower named after William of Normandy which is called either Sweet William or Stinking Willie depending on where you are. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/35 "2005-03-21T21:49:53Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > If I’m not mistaken, there’s a fragrant flower named after William of Normandy which is called either Sweet William or Stinking Willie depending on where you are. Well I have found a different origin for the name :- _Another common name - “Sweet William” - comes to us from the Latin ocellus or ‘eye’ referring to the lighter color patch in the middle of the flower. The Latin became oeillet in French and was corrupted and slurred by the English to willy – then to William. The Sweet part come from the fragrance or perhaps from an old ballad named “ Fair Margaret and Sweet William” from the 1700’s when the plant was first grown in gardens._ This is from a flower growers web-site ---
**Author:** ![robcaro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@robcaro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robcaro)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/36 "2005-03-21T22:19:30Z")
My 36th Great Grandfather was “Rollo (Rolf) the Conquerer” through my Mother’s side of the family. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/37 "2005-03-21T22:38:43Z")
RS&CRW (Read somewhere and can’t remember where) that Richard III was not called ‘Lionheart’ in his lifetime, but rather Mr. Yes and No (in French). Apparently he liked to keep his options open long after his staff and allies would have preferred a concrete decision. Can anyone confirm or deny this? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/38 "2005-03-22T01:54:03Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > RS&CRW (Read somewhere and can’t remember where) that Richard III was not called ‘Lionheart’ in his lifetime, but rather Mr. Yes and No (in French). Apparently he liked to keep his options open long after his staff and allies would have preferred a concrete decision. > > Can anyone confirm or deny this? Well, yes and no. 😉 Was he an Elf, by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![Manduck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manduck/32/256_2.png) [@Manduck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manduck)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/39 "2005-03-22T02:17:16Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Emmanuel II the Unfortunate (PORTUGAL) I saw that movie, and I wouldn’t describe it as “unfortunate”. It was actually pretty good, though softcore. I think it should be called “Emmanuel II the Softcore”. The actual title was “Emmanuel II: Joys of a Woman” though. What were we talking about again? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461/40 "2005-03-22T03:10:40Z")
> [@Rayne Man](#): > > Well I have found a different origin for the name :- > > _Another common name - “Sweet William” - comes to us from the Latin ocellus or ‘eye’ referring to the lighter color patch in the middle of the flower. The Latin became oeillet in French and was corrupted and slurred by the English to willy – then to William. The Sweet part come from the fragrance or perhaps from an old ballad named “ Fair Margaret and Sweet William” from the 1700’s when the plant was first grown in gardens._ Thanks for the post. I actually would put more credit to your source. Turns out, Sweet William and Stinking Willie are 2 different plants (_dianthus barbatus_ and _senecio jacobaea_) and the legendary appellations (attributed to William Duke of Cumberland, not William of Normandy, btw) smack of folktale: From [The Clans of Rannoch](http://www.visitrannoch.com/clan-cameron.htm) > [@](#): > > He was determined to break the spirit of the Highlanders so that they would never rise again in rebellion. So cruelly did he do his work that in Scotland he was called ‘Butcher Cumberland’. The English later gave his name to the flower, Sweet William, while the Scots called their noxious weed, the Ragwort, after him, Stinking Willie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-the-lionhearted-the-terrible-and-the-conqueror-etc/295461.md?page=3)