# The Great Un-Fork Hillary Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458 "2015-04-12T00:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/281 "2015-04-21T23:31:41Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But normally, the questions are biased against Republicans. The facts have a liberal bias, as you may have heard. > [@](#): > > I remember one asking if WMD were found in Iraq. The technical answer to that is yes, but it’s obviously not even close to what we were supposed to find. So the right answer is No. [Here’s a similar 2010 study](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/17/fox-news-viewers-are-the-_n_798146.html) from the U of MD: > [@](#): > > Fox News viewers, regardless of political information, were “significantly more likely” to believe that: > > –Most economists estimate the stimulus caused job losses (12 points more likely) > –Most economists have estimated the health care law will worsen the deficit (31 points) > –The economy is getting worse (26 points) > –Most scientists do not agree that climate change is occurring (30 points) > –The stimulus legislation did not include any tax cuts (14 points) > –Their own income taxes have gone up (14 points) > –The auto bailout only occurred under Obama (13 points) > –When TARP came up for a vote most Republicans opposed it (12 points) > –And that it is not clear that Obama was born in the United States (31 points) But they’re “better informed” than Democrats, you claim. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/282 "2015-04-22T01:04:03Z")
Those facts are cherry picked so as to be advantageous to Democrats. What the study does is demonstrate that when the facts do benefit Democrats, Republicans are less likely to accept them. The same is true of Democrats. Let’s ask Democrats these questions: Do most economists believe that raising minimum wage causes job loss? Do most scientists regard fracking as safe? Do most scientists regard GMOs as safe? Do most economists support free trade deals? Do the rich work more hours than the middle class, or less? Did the stimulus create more or fewer jobs than projected by the administration? Those questions would probably show Democrats being wrong more than Republicans, since in those cases the facts have a Republican bias. A better approach is simply to ask non-biased questions about events, rather than “scientists think” or “economists think” or “Did you know that the auto bailout isn’t just Obama’s fault?” Which the study I linked to did, and while Fox viewers fared poorly, Republicans overall did better than Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/283 "2015-04-22T01:11:01Z")
Truth be told, what I’d like to see is a survey asking Republicans, Democrats, and independents about basic facts that everyone should know that don’t change much. Like: What are the three branches of the federal government? What are the freedoms guaranteed in the first amendment? Is country X in NATO or not in NATO? Who is Speaker of the House? Who is your state’s governor? Who is the Vice President? Can non-citizens vote in federal elections? I’d bet any amount of money that Republicans would SMOKE Democrats in such a survey. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/284 "2015-04-22T01:17:35Z")
Pew did a survey on political knowledge, such as what the parties stand for and which famous political figures are in which party. Democrats couldn’t even come close: > **[What the Public Knows about the Political Parties](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2012/04/11/what-the-public-knows-about-the-political-parties/?src=prc-headline)** > > Overview Most Americans can correctly identify the relative positions of the Republican and Democratic parties on the major issues of the day. But a CAn we really take Democratic voters seriously when only 58% know Nancy Pelosi is a Democrat? A large proportion of them don’t even know what their own party stands for! I wonder how many votes Republicans could win by educating Democratic voters on what their own party stands for? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/285 "2015-04-22T11:45:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Pew did a survey on political knowledge, such as what the parties stand for and which famous political figures are in which party. Democrats couldn’t even come close: > > [What the Public Knows about the Political Parties | Pew Research Center](http://www.people-press.org/2012/04/11/what-the-public-knows-about-the-political-parties/?src=prc-headline) > > CAn we really take Democratic voters seriously when only 58% know Nancy Pelosi is a Democrat? A large proportion of them don’t even know what their own party stands for! I wonder how many votes Republicans could win by educating Democratic voters on what their own party stands for? Only 57% of Republicans (and 62% of Democrats!) knew Boehner was a Republican. And on the 7 political issues, Democrats knew better which party was on which side on 4 of them – and one of the 3 Republicans won was “reducing the size of the Federal government” – which is a Republican mantra, but means pretty much nothing (as it should!) to Democrats. So you’re selectively reading the poll. I am too – this just shows that it’s not nearly as cut and dry as Ds or Rs are more politically ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/286 "2015-04-22T12:18:37Z")
Look at it this way- there is no liberal equivalent to Michael Savage, Mark Levin, or Rush Limbaugh. Their listeners are Republicans and fed a massive diet of ignorance and lies every single day. You’re talking millions of people who can’t be trusted to walk in the rain, lest they face the sky with their mouths open and drown. Any sample that included this group of listeners is going to come out on the short end of any measuring stick you come up with. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/287 "2015-04-22T14:58:11Z")
Oh? Well, what about Rachel “Mad Dog” Maddow? Can anyone deny that behind her girlish giggle and cheerful enthusiasm lies a seething cauldron of ruthless rage and raw hatred? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/288 "2015-04-22T15:10:37Z")
She doesn’t want you. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/289 "2015-04-22T15:16:07Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I have a plausible explanation for that. 37% of likely New Hampshire Republican primary voters have an unfavorable opinion of Jeb Bush according to a recent [Franklin Pierce University poll](http://www.franklinpierce.edu/institutes/mfcc/polling/FPU_Herald_Republican_Poll_March_2015.pdf). > > Meanwhile in the analogous [poll of likely New Hampshire Democratic primary voters](http://www.franklinpierce.edu/institutes/mfcc/polling/FPU_Herald_Democratic_Poll_March_2015.pdf) 84% have a favorable opinion of Hillary Clinton compared to 12% unfavorable. She is extremely well liked by democrats. A claim to the contrary would need extraordinary evidence to be taken seriously. > > Both polls are of New Hampshire voters, but barring one weird state here or there, I don’t see why this wouldn’t be indicative of a national trend. Leaving aside the rest of the discussion here, it’s worth noting that the situation is fundamentally different on the Republican versus Democratic sides. The Republicans have an open field, and supporters of any other candidates will tend to take a more negative view of their guy’s rivals. On the Democratic side, Hillary currently dominates the field - she is the presumptive Democratic nominee, and as such Democrats will tend to look at her favorably. If JB (or anyone else) wins the Republican nomination, his numbers among Republicans will rise significantly, as people rally around their guy. It’s also worth noting that JB is somewhat left-of-center for the Republican party, while HRC is more to the center in relation to the Democratic spectrum. This can hurt JB’s popularity during primary season but that would tend to fade during the general (apart from helping him with independents). [Again, this is not to support any broader point about the relative strengths of the Republican versus Democratric potential candidates - I tend to be skeptical of this sort of argument and have not been following it closely.] ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/290 "2015-04-22T15:35:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > She doesn’t want you. Get over it. Of late, her restraining orders have taken on a much more affectionate tone. So, I guess you could say things are getting pretty serious. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/291 "2015-04-22T15:38:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > …It’s also worth noting that JB is somewhat left-of-center for the Republican party… What is that, slightly more liberal than Calvin Coolidge? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/292 "2015-04-23T09:01:55Z")
Does anyone have any doubt whatsoever that Clinton is for the TPP, despite her adamant refusal to take a position on that, among other issues? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/293 "2015-04-23T16:06:07Z")
Why does anyone care that Gary (“Monkey Business”) Hart likes O’Malley (and Jeb?!) more than Hillary? Hart is a failed loser who probably had the most insanely stupid self-destruction of a candidacy ever\*. But a few weeks ago, he said he’d vote for Jeb over Hillary and it at least made Denver news, and just now he’ll vote for O’Malley over Hillary and it’s all over the news. Why? Lady Gaga is more relevant and more substantial. And more intelligent, but that’s another point. Will _anyone_ in the world (except maybe Donna Rice) rethink their position on Hillary based on what Hart spews? I mean, it’s not even surprising that Hart hates the fact that Hillary is smarter and more successful than him. But he’s such a has-been, that you gotta wonder why it’s news. [Link](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2015/04/23/gary-hart-says-he-would-support-a-martin-omalley-presidential-bid/) \*And I’m including that one Republican pizza guy (Herman Cane? Cain?) from 2012 who was all “Family Values” but had a dozen women suing him for sexual harassment. Even his destruction was less stupid than Gary “I dare you to follow me to my love boat where I’ll be with my bimbo” Hart. (He was sleazier, but far less stupid) ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/294 "2015-04-23T16:14:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Does anyone have any doubt whatsoever that Clinton is for the TPP, despite her adamant refusal to take a position on that, among other issues? I can believe she’s waiting to hear the details before she takes a position. I would agree she would _generally_ favor such a deal, but why commit either way before the terms are public? We have a long time before the election, I don’t need to hear her opinions on everything 18 months out. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/295 "2015-04-23T17:00:25Z")
[New Quinnipiac poll released](http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2221). Lot’s of good news for Port Authority Clinton in there including a 50 point lead among dem primary voters for the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/296 "2015-04-23T17:36:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Does anyone have any doubt whatsoever that Clinton is for the TPP, despite her adamant refusal to take a position on that, among other issues? I have no doubt whatsoever she supports it. As more of a free-market Democrat that’s one of the reasons I will support her - she doesn’t buy in as wholeheartedly on the protectionism that the pro-union wing of the party calls for. Of course she would be very foolish to commit strongly on a trade deal she hasn’t seen the final language for, particularly when she is under no obligation to do so. Her generic statement of supporting free trade with strong protections for workers and the environment is exactly the right tone to take, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/297 "2015-04-23T18:14:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do most economists believe that raising minimum wage causes job loss? > Do most scientists regard fracking as safe? > Do most scientists regard GMOs as safe? > Do most economists support free trade deals? > Do the rich work more hours than the middle class, or less? > Did the stimulus create more or fewer jobs than projected by the administration? The answers aren’t are cut and dried to the Republican orthodoxy as you might think. \*Do most economists believe that raising minimum wage causes job loss? \*Can’t say I give a shit. In states that have raised the MW higher than the national minimum, there has been no evidence that it actually cost any jobs. If you believe that a higher MW costs jobs, you must also believe that businesses routinely hire more workers than they need. _Do most scientists regard fracking as safe?_ I don’t know. I do now that there are many more small earthquakes in fracking areas not previously prone to earthquakes. I do know that some people have had their well water ruined by fracking. If there is indeed a consensus, it is nowhere nearly as lopsided as the global warming consensus. _Do most economists support free trade deals?_ Do most economists work in jobs that would be outsourced to other countries with slave labor? Does anyone think that NAFTA was a good idea? _Do the rich work more hours than the middle class, or less?_ Who cares? The question isn’t how many hours they work, it’s the unneeded tax breaks that they enjoy. _Did the stimulus create more or fewer jobs than projected by the administration?_ Did the stimulus work better than the Republican alternative, i.e. do nothing? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/298 "2015-04-23T20:07:59Z")
Those questions also aren’t nearly as relevant to current political topics and issues, where one’s views really do matter directly. It would be interesting to see **adaher** ’s obvious cut-and-dried answers anyway, as they’d provide more fuel for the now-somnolent Pit thread about his wrongness. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/299 "2015-04-23T21:09:46Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do most economists believe that raising minimum wage causes job loss? Instead of asking you for a cite I [found one](http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_br0IEq5a9E77NMV) for you. It’s from 2013, but I think it’s still relevant. When presented with the statement, “Raising the federal minimum wage to $9 per hour would make it noticeably harder for low-skilled workers to find employment,” 34% of economists polled agreed, 24% were uncertain, and 32% disagreed. However, when presented with the statement, “The distortionary costs of raising the federal minimum wage to $9 per hour and indexing it to inflation are sufficiently small compared with the benefits to low-skilled workers who can find employment that this would be a desirable policy,” 5% strongly agreed, 42% agreed, 32% were uncertain, 8% disagreed, and 3% strongly disagreed. Did you know the answer to your question was, “No,” when you posted it? Do you believe the answer is, “No,” now? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/300 "2015-04-23T22:32:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Do most scientists regard fracking as safe? This one is not quite spot on, but I think it’s pretty close. > [@](#): > > A minority of the public (39%) supports the increased use of fracking to extract oil and natural gas from underground rock formations, while about half (51%) are opposed. By comparison, opinion about fracking among AAAS scientists is more negative: 31% of scientists favor the increased use of fracking while 66% are opposed. [Source](http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/01/29/chapter-3-attitudes-and-beliefs-on-science-and-technology-topics/#vaccines-and-access-to-experimental-treatments-18-point-gap). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=16)