# The Great Un-Fork Hillary Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458 "2015-04-12T00:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/981 "2015-08-17T01:07:24Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Given your guys’ demonstrated level of responsibility as public servants in the endless stream of fruitless investigations, and simple personal invective, they’ve engaged in, isn’t keeping you from getting anything more precisely what she \*should \*do? > > What have the Republicans learned from your endlessly, comically failed scandal-mongering campaign? Is there any responsibility you agree you \*should \*accept? On the contrary, what Clinton should have learned is that the more she hides, the more ammunition she hands Republicans. When you come clean, it’s one news story. When you hide things, something new keeps on coming up every couple of weeks or so. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/982 "2015-08-17T01:25:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Clinton behaved according to the precedent in her position and had nothing on her server that was labelled classified, nothing that was not already out on non-classified (i.e. less secure and likely hacked) State Department servers. For all we know (given that “we” know other parties have hacked those systems) some of it was intentional misinformation meant to be overheard. Certainly I’d be leaking false information like that if I was in charge (with real information about the false leak only available via the most secure top level communication channels). Wait, seriously? OK, this is what I get for not paying attention. I just assumed there was something heinous going on, like foreign parties trying to leverage State through the Clinton Foundation. Whatever, I have ideological reasons for disliking her. > [@Shayna](#): > > She doesn’t know how to _think_ like a Democrat or even _talk_ like a Democrat, what would give anyone the impression she’d _govern_ like a Democrat? She’s _barely_ a centrist. Barely. And if she’s ejected not a goddamn thing will change in this country. Nothing. It’ll be business as usual. Just look at _how_ she talks about the issues on her website. OK, you’ve won me over. She really isn’t of the left at all. I already thought that she shouldn’t be leading the party. At this point, it looks like I’m in it for Sanders to win. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/983 "2015-08-17T01:32:18Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Whatever, I have ideological reasons for disliking her.OK, you’ve won me over. She really isn’t of the left at all. I already thought that she shouldn’t be leading the party. At this point, it looks like I’m in it for Sanders to win. Where da heart smiley when ya need it? Yay! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/984 "2015-08-17T02:05:30Z")
Hey, any Dems here against fracking? Good luck getting an end put to it if you vote for Hillary! Think she’ll be working to represent the People over corporations like the Big Oil guys? Pffff. You’d better think again. She has a track record that proves otherwise. \*[How Hillary Clinton’s State Department sold fracking to the world](http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/10/how-hillary-clintons-state-department-sold-fracking-to-the-world) … Bulgaria had signed a five-year, $68m deal, granting US oil giant Chevron millions of acres in shale gas concessions. Bulgarians were outraged. Shortly before Clinton arrived, tens of thousands of protesters poured into the streets carrying placards that read “Stop fracking with our water” and “Chevron go home.” … Under her leadership, the State Department worked closely with energy companies to spread fracking around the globe—part of a broader push to fight climate change, boost global energy supply, and undercut the power of adversaries such as Russia that use their energy resources as a cudgel. But environmental groups fear that exporting fracking, which has been linked to drinking-water contamination and earthquakes at home, could wreak havoc in countries with scant environmental regulation. And according to interviews, diplomatic cables, and other documents obtained by Mother Jones, American officials—some with deep ties to industry—also helped US firms clinch potentially lucrative shale concessions overseas, raising troubling questions about whose interests the programme actually serves.\* The People oppossed it by the tens of thousands. Whose interests did she fight for? Chevron, of course. Please tell me you don’t really believe she’ll end subsidies to these filthy rich oil barons if she were to become president, do you? You don’t think she’ll end the disgusting, polluting, earthquake-causing fracking here at home that tens of thousands of people are fighting to end, do you? She’s a corporate politician. She will _never_ fight for us against the Big Guns. Never. Bernie Sanders will. And we know this because he _has been_ his entire political career. The further we get into primary season and the more tens of thousands of people swarm to hear him speak Truth to Power, the more and more forked she’s going to get. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/985 "2015-08-17T02:26:29Z")
That would seem to get in the way of Sanders’ inequality pitch though. Fracking provides good-paying union jobs. It’s also led directly to lower gas prices since the Saudis feel threatened enough by fracking that they are trying to kill it by overproducing oil. One could just as easily say that the anti-fracking camp is in league with the Saudis over American interests. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/986 "2015-08-17T02:54:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That would seem to get in the way of Sanders’ inequality pitch though. Fracking provides good-paying union jobs. It’s also led directly to lower gas prices since the Saudis feel threatened enough by fracking that they are trying to kill it by overproducing oil. > > One could just as easily say that the anti-fracking camp is in league with the Saudis over American interests. One could say it, but it would be ridiculously easy to dispel as the nonsense that it is. Bernie wants to [rebuild our crumbling infrastructure](https://berniesanders.com/issues/creating-decent-paying-jobs/) with good-paying union jobs; we don’t need fracking to put people back to work in this country. And we sure don’t need high-polluting fracking to get us off our dependence on Saudi oil. [Solar, wind and ocean wave technology](https://berniesanders.com/issues/climate-change/) is the future of energy independence, and those industries will also add millions of well-paying jobs over the next several decades. But good effort. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/987 "2015-08-17T03:10:19Z")
IIRC, Obama polled better against the GOP than Hillary, even this far out. Sanders polls worse. That may change. But it will have to change or at least become close before he has a serious shot, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/988 "2015-08-17T03:44:06Z")
That’ll change. Significantly. Looking at polling this early is a fool’s errand. I know you’re talking about polling against Republicans, but I don’t have readily handy data on that. I do, however, have a sample of how completely they changed between August 2007 and the final results between Obama and Hillary. August 2007: – USAToday/Gallup poll: Hillary Clinton 48%, Barack Obama 27% – Rasmussen: Hillary Clinton 43%, Barack Obama 22% – Qinnipiac: Hillary Clinton 36%, Barack Obama 21% August 2007 among black voters: – Pew Research: Hillary Clinton 47%, Barack Obama 34% And it was even worse three months later in October! – CNN: Clinton 57%, Obama 33% So yeah, I’m not concerned with polling right now. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/989 "2015-08-17T03:51:13Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > One could say it, but it would be ridiculously easy to dispel as the nonsense that it is. Bernie wants to [rebuild our crumbling infrastructure](https://berniesanders.com/issues/creating-decent-paying-jobs/) with good-paying union jobs; we don’t need fracking to put people back to work in this country. And we sure don’t need high-polluting fracking to get us off our dependence on Saudi oil. [Solar, wind and ocean wave technology](https://berniesanders.com/issues/climate-change/) is the future of energy independence, and those industries will also add millions of well-paying jobs over the next several decades. > > But good effort. There’s a lot that you don’t NEED, but failure to exploit our energy resources doesn’t do squat for the environment and it just outsources jobs. If we don’t frack. we import more oil. Also, government jobs are a poor substitute for private sector jobs. Secondly, the government is supposed to bargain for the best value for taxpayers, so we shouldn’t assume those infrastructure jobs will be good-paying unless there’s some sweetheart deal with unions worked out. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/990 "2015-08-17T03:53:04Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > That’ll change. Significantly. Looking at polling this early is a fool’s errand. I know you’re talking about polling against Republicans, but I don’t have readily handy data on that. > \ A fair bit of polling data can be found on [Real Clear Politics](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/elections/2016/). ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/991 "2015-08-17T03:54:36Z")
Polls are trending in Bernie’s favor though. [http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/2016-presidential-swing-state-polls/release-detail?ReleaseID=2261](http://www.quinnipiac.edu/news-and-events/quinnipiac-university-poll/2016-presidential-swing-state-polls/release-detail?ReleaseID=2261) \*Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is behind or on the wrong side of a too-close-to-call result in matchups with three leading Republican contenders, U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker in Colorado, Iowa and Virginia, according to a Quinnipiac University Swing State Poll released today. … In several matchups in Iowa and Colorado, another Democratic contender, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont, runs as well as, or better than Clinton against Rubio, Bush and Walker. Vice President Joseph Biden does not do as well. \* And that’s from a month ago, before his massive audiences heard his message last weekend. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/992 "2015-08-17T03:55:49Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > A fair bit of polling data can be found on [Real Clear Politics](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/elections/2016/). Yeah, I just didn’t feel like looking it up. 😉 Thanks for the link though! ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/993 "2015-08-17T04:04:46Z")
[Sanders beats Trump by 20-plus points](http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/249677-sanders-beats-trump-by-20-plus-points) \*A poll recently released by CNN/ORC found Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) walloping Donald Trump by about 20 points, beating Gov. Scott Walker (R-Wis.) and running in a statistical tie against former Gov. Jeb Bush (R-Fla.). The huge margin that Sanders holds over Trump makes it clear that America is in the summer of Sanders, not the summer of Trump, cable news obsessions with Trump notwithstanding. The fact that Sanders beats Walker by six to seven points, depending on whether all voters or likely voters are counted — a near-landslide margin in a general election — makes it clear that the Sanders surge is more than a surge against Donald Trump, but move that makes him competitive with all Republican candidates. Most interesting is the fact that Sanders is running dead even with Bush, which means that this poll, at least, refutes the notion that Sanders is not electable and supports the idea, instead, that Sanders could defeat any Republican.\* Again, from prior to last weekend’s events and this weekend’s Iowa State Fair. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/994 "2015-08-17T04:25:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > This really should be specifically addressed, especially since you are trying to compare Sanders to Obama. > > What gave Obama his path to victory in Iowa and beyond was not packing in stadiums (although he eventually managed that as well). It was his bringing the techniques of community organizing to the campaign game, meeting smaller groups one on one and leveraging them. Hillary’s team has learned from that playbook. “House meetings” with a hundred or so in Iowa City do not make the news but they are the groundwork that this stage requires, the grassroots infrastructure that brought Obama his win. Blah, blah, blah. [Bernie Sanders Is A Digital Marketing Powerhouse](http://www.massandreason.com/2015/08/14/bernie-sanders-is-a-digital-marketing-powerhouse/) Read it. Go on, it’s OK, it won’t kill you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/995 "2015-08-17T12:46:05Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > On the contrary, what Clinton should have learned is that the more she hides, the more ammunition she hands Republicans. When you find the children know how to reach the glassware, you need to put it away somewhere safer. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/996 "2015-08-17T12:53:59Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Whatever, I have ideological reasons for disliking her. Like what? Would you like to convince anyone else to reach the same reasoned conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/997 "2015-08-17T13:06:58Z")
I like Hillary’s policies, thought Bill was a good president, would vote for Hillary, think she’d win. But…her campaign thus far seems too cute by half. Sure, locking up money is important- but not as much as connecting with the people. This email thing may be a pound of crap in a thirty pound bag, but she needs to be more proactive in dealing with it. She seems to have a nearly Nixonian obsession with control and secrecy. Sanders is filling stadiums, she needs to do it, too. Sure, it’s 2015. That doesn’t seem to stop the other 2016 candidates from getting out there and connecting. While Hillary Hare is thinking about her cabinet, Bernie Tortoise is actually making progress. Not that I don’t love Bernie as well, but Jesus, Hillary. You’ve wanted this all your life, but acting like it’s already yours isn’t going to get it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/998 "2015-08-17T13:27:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > While Hillary Hare is thinking about her cabinet, Bernie Tortoise is actually making progress. Might be time to reread your Aesop. Working steadily for the long haul and crossing the finish line first is what the _tortoise_ did. Sprinting out early and running out of energy is what the \*hare \*did. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/999 "2015-08-17T13:42:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Might be time to reread your Aesop. Working steadily for the long haul and crossing the finish line first is what the _tortoise_ did. Sprinting out early and running out of energy is what the \*hare \*did. No, it seems to me that Hillary got out first, had a big lead, and decided she had already won and took a nap as Bernie plodded along and is now passing her in at least one state poll. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1000 "2015-08-17T15:14:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, it seems to me that Hillary got out first, had a big lead, and decided she had already won and took a nap as Bernie plodded along and is now passing her in at least one state poll. And is gaining on her in national polls. As he’s out there building name-recognition, he’s building momentum and support, whereas while she’s sticking to fundraising dinners, she’s losing support. [Sanders surges in latest national poll](http://berniepost.com/2015/08/sanders-surges-in-latest-national-poll/) \*Polling conducted by Fox News between 11-13 August put Sanders at 30 per cent, while Clinton fell to 49 per cent. The question asked was who you would like to see as the Democratic presidential nominee. The 8 per cent gain for Sanders since the last Fox News poll, taken only two weeks ago is great news for the campaign. Sanders was polling at just 3 per cent nationally at the end of March.\* I predict what we’re going to see in polling conducted _after_ these past two weekends of stadium events and the State Fair will make it much, much tighter,probably closing the gap by another 10 points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=51)