# The Great Un-Fork Hillary Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458 "2015-04-12T00:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1001 "2015-08-17T15:33:12Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s a lot that you don’t NEED, but failure to exploit our energy resources doesn’t do squat for the environment Failure to exploit our resources doesn’t do any _damage_ to our environment. Fracking is filthy, it’s poisoning our ground water and causing earthquakes. > [@adaher](#): > > and it just outsources jobs. Nonsense. We transition those jobs to clean energy. Exploiting the sun, the wind and ocean waves doesn’t destroy or pollute anything. > [@adaher](#): > > If we don’t frack. we import more oil. If we don’t frack, we build our clean energy reasources. > [@adaher](#): > > Also, government jobs are a poor substitute for private sector jobs. Since when? Until you guys get your hands on the reins, they’re a hell of a lot more stable and they provide better benefits. > [@adaher](#): > > Secondly, the government is supposed to bargain for the best value for taxpayers, so we shouldn’t assume those infrastructure jobs will be good-paying unless there’s some sweetheart deal with unions worked out. I assure you, under President Sanders, all government contract jobs will stipulate minimum pay rates for workers. And the country will be thrilled to pay hard-working people a decent wage to get their roads, bridges, sewer systems, et al updated and modernized. We’re downright clamoring for it. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1002 "2015-08-17T17:15:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > No, it seems to me that Hillary got out first, had a big lead, and decided she had already won and took a nap as Bernie plodded along and is now passing her in at least one state poll. Over-reacting to every poll and media created issue (between candidates, that is) was part of Hillary’s problem vs. Obama. I think she’s doing the right thing by laying low. I honestly don’t see Bernie as the Dem nominee. I think people are responding to is economic message (and hey, I like it, too), but enthusiasm will fade once we get closer and more topics come to the fore. It’s great to have a candidate in the race who “tells it like it its”, but that isn’t always the best quality in a president. Obama was able to appear more and more ‘presidential’ as the primaries went on. If Bernie can do that, then he’s got a shot. I don’t think he can, but a lot of people didn’t think Obama could either. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1003 "2015-08-17T18:47:03Z")
Oh ye of little faith. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1004 "2015-08-17T19:28:39Z")
I’ll be very surprised if Sanders can pull an Obama. He doesn’t have the same political skills or narrative appeal. At a superficial level, he’s a 73-year-old white guy who has been a congressman for a quarter of a century without a ton to show for it. His claim to the change label rests largely on the fact that he is a Socialist. Now, I get that there’s more to him than superficialities. His political record is not especially radical. He’s been a good friend to veterans. He’s got a long history of being on the right side of foreign policy and national security issues. He comes across as genuine and sincere–and is probably both, or as much as any politician is. But the superficialities matter to the narrative. And I suspect it will take an exceptional politician to overcome them. I haven’t seen him demonstrate those political chops yet. Promising people a $15/hr. wage and free tuition will win him votes. But I suspect that’s not enough, especially if the economy is about where it is now for the next two years. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1005 "2015-08-17T20:05:01Z")
He’s offering one hell of a lot more than a $15 minimum wage. You should be paying attention. His biggest appeal isn’t even economic, it’s democratic: No more corporate influence in government. And _that’s_ the message that’s resonating. He’s not going to sell us out to Big Oil interests over environmental concerns. He’s quite clear that he’s against the KeystoneXL pipeline, for instance. You know what Hillary’s position is on that? Do you know _why_ you don’t know her position on that? Because when she was asked, she had the gall to say that if it’s _still_ an issue _when_ she becomes president, she’ll give us an answer then. The arrogance and lack of understanding how campaigning for president works is appalling. The more she opens her mouth, the more people she turns off. She’s going to lose this nomination and she’s going to lose it big. She’s for TPP and moving jobs overseas, she’s for fracking, she thinks better wages will just trickle down on us plebes. People are sick to death of that shit. Sick of it. And unless or until you’ve been to one of Sanders’ rallies, you can hardly opine on his oratory skills. He’s killing it. [Unlike Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders Never Says, ‘When I Become President, I Will Answer Your Question’](http://huffpost.com/us/entry/7893228) ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1006 "2015-08-17T20:41:27Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > The arrogance and lack of understanding how campaigning for president works is appalling. You know, there’s a reason that politicians speak carefully and don’t often give straight answers. ‘Straight talk’, even when a politician is making a reasonable point, often turns off big portions of the electorate. Now, maybe Bernie can be the first one to ride it all the way to the white house, but the historical odds are not in his favor. > [@](#): > > The more she opens her mouth, the more people she turns off. Sounds like you are endorsing her current strategy, then. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1007 "2015-08-17T21:15:01Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Oh ye of little faith. Oh ye of \*excessive \*faith? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1008 "2015-08-17T21:34:48Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > You know, there’s a reason that politicians speak carefully and don’t often give straight answers. ‘Straight talk’, even when a politician is making a reasonable point, often turns off big portions of the electorate. Now, maybe Bernie can be the first one to ride it all the way to the white house, but the historical odds are not in his favor.Sounds like you are endorsing her current strategy, then. Bwahahaha! That’s your defense for her passing the buck when a constituent asks where she stands in an important issue? “I may stick my foot in my mouth so I’m just not going to give you the information you might need to determine if I’m fit to lead this country.” That’s your answer? Holy crap that’s as dumb as hers! But yes I’m loving her current strategy. At this rate, she may as well just drop out and nothing would make me happier. Elvis, we had this conversation eight years ago. I don’t need to remind you how that turned out, do i? Hillary Clinton is unelectable. She won’t win this time exactly like she didn’t win last time. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1009 "2015-08-17T21:48:15Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Bwahahaha! That’s your defense for her passing the buck when a constituent asks where she stands in an important issue? “I may stick my foot in my mouth so I’m just not going to give you the information you might need to determine if I’m fit to lead this country.” That’s your answer? Holy crap that’s as dumb as hers! Well, my point was about politicians in general, but perhaps you missed that bit of nuance. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1010 "2015-08-17T22:58:46Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Elvis, we had this conversation eight years ago. I don’t need to remind you how that turned out, do i? Yes, with a President whose weak spine has left us seriously farther back than we could be. > [@](#): > > Hillary Clinton is unelectable. The voters of New York don’t think so. > [@](#): > > She won’t win this time exactly like she didn’t win last time. She’ll take it right to the end of the primaries again, with more actual voters in her favor, is that what you mean? 😉 I frankly remember hearing more substantive reasoning from middle school girls discussing whether the Backstreet Boys or NSync were cooler. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1011 "2015-08-17T23:13:52Z")
[Hillary’s campaign “proves” she doesn’t lie by citing fact-checkers who point to clever deceptions.](http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2015/08/17/clinton-email-factsheet-false-misleading-column/31649655/) So…USA Today isn’t buying the “It’s not lying if I’m really clever about how I phrase shit” defense from Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1012 "2015-08-17T23:56:58Z")
Only her die-hard fan boys and girls are buying the shit sandwich she’s selling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1013 "2015-08-18T00:04:47Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Only her die-hard fan boys and girls are buying the shit sandwich she’s selling. By her approval ratings in the Democratic party, this would seem to include most Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1014 "2015-08-18T00:14:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I frankly remember hearing more substantive reasoning from middle school girls discussing whether the Backstreet Boys or NSync were cooler. A more irritable mod might well call this an insult. So let’s not do it again or by God it won’t be a happy event. That goes for all of you. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1015 "2015-08-18T01:02:16Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > He’s offering one hell of a lot more than a $15 minimum wage. You should be paying attention. His biggest appeal isn’t even economic, it’s democratic: No more corporate influence in government. And _that’s_ the message that’s resonating. How do you know what message is resonating? I think he has a few ideas that work well for medium-information voters. One is a high federal minimum wage. Another is the claim that _Citizens United_ drastically increased corporate power in Washington or fundamentally changed the law. A third is that the “real unemployment” is much higher than the government will reveal, and that a government that really cared would create lots of jobs. A fourth is that reversing free trade policies will be great for the economy. Many people don’t vote on policy at all. And as I said, I’m not sure he has a ton to offer them other than an aura of authenticity that I think will probably fade. And people who really care about policy mostly know that those ideas are bad ones. So my gut says he cannot capture a majority of the broad tent that is the Democratic party, for much the same reason that Trump or Cruz is unlikely to get the GOP nod by promising to build a wall. But we shall see! ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1016 "2015-08-18T02:13:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By her approval ratings in the Democratic party, this would seem to include most Democrats. While true, it does seem like that is dwindling number at a time is should be growing. As of now I still expect her to get the nomination, but it is far from the certainty it seemed just a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1017 "2015-08-18T03:11:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By her approval ratings in the Democratic party, this would seem to include most Democrats. Actually, no. [Hillary Clinton unfavorable numbers highest in 14 years](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/poll-hillary-clinton-unfavorable-numbers-118532.html) \*Just 46 percent said they view the Democratic presidential front-runner favorably, compared to 50 percent who said they have an unfavorable view. \* And it’s only [getting worse](http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1018 "2015-08-18T03:23:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That would seem to get in the way of Sanders’ inequality pitch though. Fracking provides good-paying union jobs. It’s also led directly to lower gas prices since the Saudis feel threatened enough by fracking that they are trying to kill it by overproducing oil. > > One could just as easily say that the anti-fracking camp is in league with the Saudis over American interests. Union workers build jet engines in my district now. Presumably union workers would build and maintain windmills and install solar farms. And union workers will mine or recycle much of the aluminum, copper, and rare earth metals, I’m guessing. Long term, that probably doesn’t match up to the man-hours from coal mining, but even longer-term, fossil fuels are really bad news for the economy. So, it depends on what timescale you’re looking at. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1019 "2015-08-18T03:25:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > How do you know what message is resonating? You started me off with an easy one! Because I’ve watched and listened to and interviewed his supporters, so I know what they’re saying and because I’ve been at one of those packed-arena rallies he held and I listened there too. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think he has a few ideas that work well for medium-information voters. One is a high federal minimum wage. Another is the claim that _Citizens United_ drastically increased corporate power in Washington or fundamentally changed the law. A third is that the “real unemployment” is much higher than the government will reveal, and that a government that really cared would create lots of jobs. A fourth is that reversing free trade policies will be great for the economy. I find it curious that you consider those who are suppnorting him 15 months before the election, three months before the first debate and five months before the primaries start, to be "medium-information voters."9 > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Many people don’t vote on policy at all. And as I said, I’m not sure he has a ton to offer them other than an aura of authenticity that I think will probably fade. And people who really care about policy mostly know that those ideas are bad ones. So my gut says he cannot capture a majority of the broad tent that is the Democratic party, for much the same reason that Trump or Cruz is unlikely to get the GOP nod by promising to build a wall. > > But we shall see! People who actually care about policy know that those are the only way we’re ever going to fix this broken mess. And stop comparing this sane, brilliant, kind-hearted man with those racist, hateful slime buckets on the right. There simply is no comparison and that crap is really getting old. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1020 "2015-08-18T03:29:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Like what? Would you like to convince anyone else to reach the same reasoned conclusion? I’m for socialized medicine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=52)