# The Great Un-Fork Hillary Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458 "2015-04-12T00:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1021 "2015-08-18T03:47:48Z")
[Obama’s Donors Flocking To Sanders, Romney’s Going To Rubio](http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/run-2016/2015/07/17/obamas-donors-flocking-to-sanders-romneys-going-to-rubio) \*Bernie Sanders is drawing more of Barack Obama’s 2012 campaign donors than Hillary Clinton. And Marco Rubio is scoring the biggest share of Mitt Romney’s contributors thus far. These are the findings ofCrowdpac, a San Francisco-based political data-mining firm which analyzed the July presidential campaign finance reports. The Vermont senator has already received contributions from 24,582 of Obama’s donors; whereas Clinton has only tapped just over 9,000 of them. Martin O’Malley, the former Maryland governor, has grabbed 383 Obama donors. **That meansSanders has nabbed 72 percent of the 34,340 Obama donors who have given to a candidate in 2016** , according to Crowdpac.\* And soon enough the power brokers are not going to be able to ignore our boisterous cries for change and the endorsements will flow his way too. You can’t ignore numbers like that. Forked. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1022 "2015-08-18T04:26:28Z")
Well Bernie, I served with Barack Obama. I knew Barack Obama. Barack Obama was a friend of mine. Senator, you’re no Barack Obama. Sorry Bernie. Look, it certainly is true that Bernie is drawing crowds. So did Howard Dean. Bernie might have the policy positions that people like, he might be a decent enough person, he might be likable while Hillary is a cast-iron bitch. Doesn’t mean Bernie can beat Hillary. Bernie doesn’t have a tenth of the chops that Obama does. Can we just elect Obama again for a third term? Please? ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1023 "2015-08-18T05:18:40Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > And soon enough the power brokers are not going to be able to ignore our boisterous cries for change… But you think Hillary _will_ ignore the cries for change? Part of the reason she’s waiting is to see what resonates with the public, which will allow her to keep a consistent message throughout her campaign (or at least more consistent than if she started testing the waters earlier). Now, if Bernie can force her to start campaigning earlier than she plans, that is definitely to his advantage - and he’s doing a good job of it. All the reports of packed stadiums have to make her sweat a bit, but you have to remember it is also to the media’s advantage to make her come out earlier than she wants. One horse doesn’t make a race. So right now things may _seem_ dire for Hillary, but I think you are mistaking a calculated move by her team as an Obama-type wave of enthusiasm for Bernie. This is not that. It could eventually be, but we won’t know until Hillary starts campaigning in earnest. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1024 "2015-08-18T05:40:32Z")
> [@Pashnish\_Ewing](#): > > But you think Hillary _will_ ignore the cries for change? Part of the reason she’s waiting is to see what resonates with the public, which will allow her to keep a consistent message throughout her campaign (or at least more consistent than if she started testing the waters earlier). Now, if Bernie can force her to start campaigning earlier than she plans, that is definitely to his advantage - and he’s doing a good job of it. All the reports of packed stadiums have to make her sweat a bit, but you have to remember it is also to the media’s advantage to make her come out earlier than she wants. One horse doesn’t make a race. > > So right now things may _seem_ dire for Hillary, but I think you are mistaking a calculated move by her team as an Obama-type wave of enthusiasm for Bernie. This is not that. It could eventually be, but we won’t know until Hillary starts campaigning in earnest. All I read here is a lot of wishful thinking while ignoring the facts on the ground. Oh, and contradicting yourself. Either she’s waiting to see which way the wind blows before deciding how to tweak her message to sound like she really means it, or she’s going for consistency throughout her campaign. Pick one; it can’t be both. And I’ve got news for you: Most of the country has had its belly full of politicians who are panderers and don’t really mean what they say. That’s why she has now fallen below the 50 percent mark among Democrats for the first time this election season. [http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/08/hillary-falls-below-50-percent-among-democrats.php](http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/08/hillary-falls-below-50-percent-among-democrats.php) \*A Fox News poll finds that Hillary Clinton is favored by only 49 percent of Democrats. Bernie Sanders’ support is at 30 percent. That’s quite a swing from June, when Clinton led Sanders by 61-15. Clinton’s 19 point lead is still substantial. But in August 2007, she held a bigger lead over Barack Obama. Back then, she was ahead 48-26.\* This is not a pretty trend for her. And as the season heats up, it’s only going to get worse, as more people hear Bernie’s message. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1025 "2015-08-18T07:13:41Z")
My basic take on the race: 1. Sanders can’t beat Hillary and he is no Obama. Obama won the primary with a coalition of white activists and blacks along with serious establishment support(Reid, Kennedy etc.) and excellent fundraising. Sanders just has the white activists. That’s enough to perhaps win Iowa and New Hampshire but not go all the way. 2. Biden is the only Democrat who can stop Hillary but only if he can persuade primary voters that he is a better bet for the general. If Democrats believe that Hillary and Biden are equally likely to win the general, they strongly prefer Hillary. 3. Biden has a decent case about the general election. Hillary’s favorability ratings are mediocre and falling and her ratings on honesty are horrendous. Biden does better on both and by a huge margin on honesty. The e-mail issue is an endless drip which is corroding Hillary’s image. There are probably some Clinton Foundation stories out there which have the potential to hurt her also. 4. Having a case is not the same as being able to persuade voters but bottom line: a Biden candidacy has serious potential if he is willing to take the plunge. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1026 "2015-08-18T07:36:57Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Oh, and contradicting yourself. Either she’s waiting to see which way the wind blows before deciding how to tweak her message to sound like she really means it, or she’s going for consistency throughout her campaign. Pick one; it can’t be both. No contradiction. She hasn’t actually started campaigning. You said it yourself, she’s still in fundraising mode. You think it’s a sign she’s falling behind. I think it’s a sign she plans to cherry pick some of Bernie’s popular positions (the ones that are ‘safest’ for the general), leave him with the more ‘out there’ positions that differentiate the two, and turn it into a game of ‘who is most presidential’. And if it comes to that, there’s no contest. Hillary can get away with changing her positions: no one expects anything less from her at this point. Bernie’s positions are locked in. He has no flexibility - if he did, he wouldn’t be Bernie. > [@](#): > > This is not a pretty trend for her. And as the season heats up, it’s only going to get worse, as more people hear Bernie’s message. I guess we’ll see. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1027 "2015-08-18T11:08:36Z")
I like Joe Biden, but I don’t see him as the Great Male Hope of the ABC side, sorry. He’s been treated as an also-ran for a long time. Has he even indicated he may run? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1028 "2015-08-18T11:33:56Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Failure to exploit our resources doesn’t do any _damage_ to our environment. Fracking is filthy, it’s poisoning our ground water and causing earthquakes. > Nonsense. We transition those jobs to clean energy. Exploiting the sun, the wind and ocean waves doesn’t destroy or pollute anything. That’s the future. Right now, we import more oil. > [@](#): > > Since when? Until you guys get your hands on the reins, they’re a hell of a lot more stable and they provide better benefits. By taking money from taxpayers rather than creating wealth. > [@](#): > > I assure you, under President Sanders, all government contract jobs will stipulate minimum pay rates for workers. And the country will be thrilled to pay hard-working people a decent wage to get their roads, bridges, sewer systems, et al updated and modernized. We’re downright clamoring for it. I’m sure that’s true, but Americans are not actually clamoring for the most expensive roads and bridges possible. Government is supposed to look out for the taxpayers. Treating the taxpayers like their interests don’t matter is what led to the Reagan Revolution in the first place. That’s an issue that I think the Clintons have long understood better than most liberals. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1029 "2015-08-18T11:35:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > By her approval ratings in the Democratic party, this would seem to include most Democrats. Most Democrats just don’t care. When you’re losing support everywhere else but Democrats stick by you, that implies a serious moral failing on the part of Democrats. Might be time to stop making fun of the Republican base and start addressing the failings of your own base. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1030 "2015-08-18T12:10:47Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Actually, no. > [Hillary Clinton unfavorable numbers highest in 14 years](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/poll-hillary-clinton-unfavorable-numbers-118532.html) > > \*Just 46 percent said they view the Democratic presidential front-runner favorably, compared to 50 percent who said they have an unfavorable view. \* > > And it’s only [getting worse](http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating). I said “Democrats” – most Democrats still like her, according to polls of Democratic voters. So I was pointing out that you seem to be claiming that most Democrats are “buying the shit sandwich she’s selling”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1031 "2015-08-18T12:11:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Most Democrats just don’t care. When you’re losing support everywhere else but Democrats stick by you, that implies a serious moral failing on the part of Democrats. This does not follow logically. I have no idea how the two thoughts are connected. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1032 "2015-08-18T12:11:55Z")
If only 46% approve of Clinton and 80-90% of Democrats do, that means that pretty much only Democrats like Clinton. And since Democrats can’t elect a President by themselves… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1033 "2015-08-18T12:24:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If only 46% approve of Clinton and 80-90% of Democrats do, that means that pretty much only Democrats like Clinton. And since Democrats can’t elect a President by themselves… You said “moral failing” – what does this have to do with moral failings? Further, it’s not necessary to approve of Clinton to vote for her – only to prefer her over her opponent. But that’s not what I’m disagreeing with you on here. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1034 "2015-08-18T12:26:37Z")
Well, it could be an intellectual failing if Democrats are the only ones who regard her as honest and trustworthy. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1035 "2015-08-18T12:30:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well, it could be an intellectual failing if Democrats are the only ones who regard her as honest and trustworthy. So why did you say “moral failing” (not that it implies “intellectual failing” either)? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1036 "2015-08-18T12:32:53Z")
[300+ classified Hillary e-mails found on her “personal use only” server"](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/17/new-hillary-clinton-email-count-305-documents-pote/) "Emails about planning Chelsea’s wedding or my mother’s funeral arrangements. Condolence notes to friends, as well as yoga routines, family vacations — the other things you typically find in inboxes. No one wants their personal emails made public.” sez Hillary Yup. She just wants to protect her personal emails. Emails like any other reg’lar person would have, like messages from and to the State Department about then current affairs, and who among us doesn’t have those on our sooper-sekrit personal web server? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1037 "2015-08-18T12:37:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So why did you say “moral failing” (not that it implies “intellectual failing” either)? It’s a moral failing if you don’t care that your candidate is dishonest. It’s an intellectual failing if you don’t know that your candidate is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1038 "2015-08-18T12:37:18Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > [300+ classified Hillary e-mails found on her “personal use only” server"](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/17/new-hillary-clinton-email-count-305-documents-pote/) > > "Emails about planning Chelsea’s wedding or my mother’s funeral arrangements. Condolence notes to friends, as well as yoga routines, family vacations — the other things you typically find in inboxes. No one wants their personal emails made public.” sez Hillary > > Yup. She just wants to protect her personal emails. Emails like any other reg’lar person would have, like messages from and to the State Department about then current affairs, and who among us doesn’t have those on our sooper-sekrit personal web server? “Potentially classified” doesn’t mean classified, and even if it is it doesn’t mean that it was classified at the time. Until we actually see the emails (whether redacted or not, and none have been released with any sensitive/classified data blacked out that I’m aware of) we still don’t know where this is anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1039 "2015-08-18T12:40:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s a moral failing if you don’t care that your candidate is dishonest. It’s an intellectual failing if you don’t know that your candidate is dishonest. She’s far more honest and accurate than the Republicans for the most part. These things are measured and tracked, at least as much as they can be (it’s impossible to read candidates’ minds, so all we can compare are statements to the facts), and Hillary is better than most Republicans. So bullshit. Considering how much more dishonest/inaccurate most of the Republicans have been (including guys like McCain that you like), I could say the same thing about you and Republicans, with more factual basis – but I won’t, because that would be silly. It’s just different understandings of concepts like honesty and accuracy, and different emphases on different aspects of these. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1040 "2015-08-18T12:42:14Z")
It’s an election, it’s all about perception. Now you’ve got people who have gone to jail for mishandling classified info claiming a double standard. Does anyone actually think the Obama administration would ever charge Clinton, no matter what the evidence turned up? So there will always be the perception that once again, the rules are different for the Clintons. Not exactly the perception you want when you’re running in an election that is in large part going to be about inequality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=53)