# The Great Un-Fork Hillary Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458 "2015-04-12T00:17:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 72
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1421 "2015-10-27T12:10:34Z")
I agree that it was ill-judged and opportunistic. I also agree that you probably should have left it at that without the Kreskin impression. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1422 "2015-10-27T12:15:32Z")
She’s starting to sound like Giuliani, only replace “9/11” with “woman”. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1423 "2015-10-27T12:38:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Clinton’s attempt to portray Sanders’ statement as sexist When you quote the story, could you _include what Hillary Clinton said_ that indicates that she was talking about Bernie Sanders? Because I’m seeing a pretty innocuous quote from Hillary, combined with a newspaper’s claims that her words had something to do with Bernie. (And no, I’m not gonna use up one of my 10 free NYT views to read the story myself, even assuming I’ve got one left to spare.) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1424 "2015-10-27T16:02:18Z")
I think there is a misreading of how that statement is portrayed. I saw it shared by plenty of Democrats on Facebook. And from a quick look at that quote on Hillary Clinton’s official Facebook page shows that it’s been “shared” over 11,000 times and ‘liked’ over 43,000 times. I think it’s a statement that does resonate with some. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1425 "2015-10-28T01:23:49Z")
The comment and her frequent refrain in the debate claiming two X chromosomes as an important qualification both certainly rub me, a male supporter, the wrong way. She deserves our votes because she is, IMO, the best person running for the job, not on the basis of her gender. But more than half of all voters, including in the Democratic primary, are female; it may play differently with them. And it is not such a bad rub that it diminishes my support. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1426 "2015-10-29T05:15:09Z")
Minimizing the problems of the VA won’t win her many vets’ votes, although I doubt that was a group she was going to do well among to begin with. > **[Clinton campaign: Republicans are exploiting VA health scandal | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/28/politics/hillary-clinton-veterans-va-health/index.html?eref=rss_politics)** > > Hillary Clinton’s campaign on Wednesday charged that Republicans were using comments Clinton made last week about the Department of Veterans Affairs to “push an ideological agenda to privatize the VA.” Gotta admit that her changing the subject while walking back her comments is pretty skillful though. The VA does still need fixing(why this President isn’t leading the charge I have no idea), and it’s good that Clinton’s comments have caused her to now have to release a plan to fix it. Be interested in seeing if there’s anything there other than “spend more money”. Like more accountability, the ability to more easily fire people, making it easier for vets to get care outside the system, etc. And according to the article, the problems are getting worse, not better: > [@](#): > > A more recent CNN investigation found the problem is actually getting worse – veterans continue to wait months for care at some VA facilities, and a September federally funded report concluded the agency remains “plagued” by problems including growing bureaucracy, staffing challenges and unsustainable costs. Mr. President? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1427 "2015-10-29T13:27:20Z")
How concerned were you when your party’s last President, the one who made most of these people become wounded veterans, declined to do anything about it either? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1428 "2015-10-30T11:56:21Z")
I agree, Obama is very much like Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1429 "2015-10-30T12:21:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree, Obama is very much like Bush. Evasion noted. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1430 "2015-10-30T12:34:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I agree, Obama is very much like Bush. Even the war-starting, economy-destroying part? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1431 "2015-10-30T12:40:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Evasion noted. It’s true that the President(two Presidents) have known about the problems since 2005 and done pretty much nothing. So the question is, why should anyone believe Hillary Clinton will do anything? She tried to minimize the scandal, claiming that the problems weren’t widespread, then when she takes heat for it, promises a plan. But how high a priority will that plan be? Why didn’t she have a plan until she got into trouble? Oh yeah, because she was going for a third straight Presidency of “I had no idea!” when it comes to the VA. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1432 "2015-10-30T12:58:05Z")
The evasion continues. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1433 "2015-10-30T13:41:22Z")
Of course actually there has been quite a lot done about the problems in the VA … and much of it the result of work done by Sanders on the one major issue that Sanders actually accomplished something about while in Congress. And there is a huge amount more to still accomplish. Both of which she clearly has to have already known. Which really raises more question about why she said what she said. Dang. Grant the man his singular actual accomplishment. It won’t hurt you in the polls to acknowledge the one major thing he actually has to show for all his years in Congress and it rightfully claims the major share of working on the problem for the Democratic team even if not for you personally. I like her, I support her, but dang sometimes smart people make stupid decisions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1434 "2015-10-30T13:47:26Z")
Doublepost … dang hampsters. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1435 "2015-10-30T14:36:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Of course actually there has been quite a lot done about the problems in the VA … and much of it the result of work done by Sanders on the one major issue that Sanders actually accomplished something about while in Congress. And there is a huge amount more to still accomplish. Both of which she clearly has to have already known. > > Which really raises more question about why she said what she said. What did she say about Sanders? Clinton’s been blasting Republicans for wanting to privatize the VA instead of fixing it. Maybe you have some other statement in mind? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1436 "2015-10-30T15:11:17Z")
Problems with the VA are enormous and widespread and will probably require several administrations to completely fix. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1437 "2015-10-30T17:09:45Z")
It is what she did not say as much as anything else … this is a dog that did not bark moment. To my ear anyway. Let me back up though. There are two items to discuss here. One is the political tone and utility of what was said - and that was a fail. There was a better response available and she flubbed it. The other is the accuracy of what she said. And she seems actually to be on target with that. The fact actually _is_ that the VA overall gets scores as high or better than private hospitals by those who use the system. Tremendous improvements have been made and the care there is as good or better than in the private sector. The problem for the VA [remains](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/federal-eye/wp/2015/06/23/one-year-after-va-scandal-the-number-of-veterans-waiting-for-care-is-up-50-percent/) more demand for the services than capacity and funds with consequent long wait times. And it is true that the GOP Congress is not willing to provide the funding or even allow the VA to control where they spend the funding already allocated to best address the demands. > [@](#): > > … Amid tense debate, VA Secretary Bob McDonald earlier this year asked for “flexibility” to reallocate billions of dollars in funds from the $10 billion that Congress established last year to fund private care to help former troops struggling to obtain appointments or who live far from a health center. > > The embattled VA says that its vast health-care system has handled 2.7 million more appointments than in any previous year, and has increased its capacity by more than 7 million patient visits per year, double what they anticipated, the New York Times first reported this week. > > VA made more than 2.9 million authorizations for veterans to receive care in the private sector between June 1, 2014, and June 1, 2015, which is a 44 percent increase in authorizations, when compared to the same period in previous years. > > “We are simply asking Congress, once again, for the budget flexibility to use our existing funds to provide Veterans with the care in the community they have already earned,” said VA Deputy Secretary Sloan Gibson via e-mail. … > > … There have already been passionate objections among Republican lawmakers about using the Choice Card funds to make up for what the VA describes as a shortfall. … This is a very basic thing: a new drugs have come out that cure Hepatitis C. It is [quite expensive](http://blogs.wsj.com/pharmalot/2015/03/17/hepatitis-c-drugs-are-cost-effective-but-affordability-is-another-matter/) up front but over the course of disease care they are cost-effective. The costs of providing this new and expensive care was not budgeted to be spent in this cycle. The GOP Congress had been refusing to provide even the flexibility to shift money around in order to pay for it is hard to explain other than by their wanting to see the VA fail. (They finally approved the ability to shift the money around in August.) No question that there are systems issues that have allowed for some individuals to perform poorly and have resulted in some wastes. But boy, [this](http://www.rand.org/blog/2012/08/socialized-or-not-we-can-learn-from-the-va.html) from the RAND corp: > [@](#): > > … found that the VA system delivered higher-quality care than the national sample of private hospitals on all measures except acute care (on which the two samples performed comparably). In nearly every other respect, VA patients received consistently better care across the board, including screening, diagnosis, treatment, and access to follow-up. > > Asch and his team also found that VA patients were more likely to receive recommended care than patients in the national sample. … the VA is doing a much better job of controlling health care costs than the private sector. After adjusting for a changing case mix as younger veterans return from Iraq and Afghanistan, the CBO calculated that the VA’s average health care cost per enrollee grew by roughly 1.7% from 1999 to 2005, an annual growth rate of 0.3%. During the same time period, Medicare’s per capita costs grew by 29.4 %, an annual growth rate of 4.4 %. In the private insurance market, premiums for family coverage jumped by more than 70% (PDF), according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. > > Every health system has its faults, and the VA is no exception. In recent years, it has been challenged by severe budgetary constraints and a surge in demand, as large numbers of injured and ill veterans return from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Its Vietnam-era veterans are aging rapidly and the agency must contend with growing case complexity. When a system as big as the VA falls short, anecdotes about shortcomings get more play than reams of data. > > But the VA also has formidable strengths. So let’s be straight up here … she is right. The VA actually does a fine job taking care of a population that has many chronic health care problems and doing a better and more cost-efficient job of it than does the private sector and achieving high scores on quality of care and on patient satisfaction … and the GOP has used its problems, which it has, as a whipping boy, in a partisan fashion. And the problems that are there need to be addressed including mechanisms for funding that keep up with the very real increases in demands including for some for expensive even if cost-effective services and including better oversight mechanisms to prevent fiscal abuse (which of course the private sector could use too). But saying that how she did was politically imprudent and she should be a smarter politician than that. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1438 "2015-10-30T17:56:27Z")
It’s … _interesting_ to see someone criticized for the \*way \*they _didn’t_ say something. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1439 "2015-11-03T16:31:41Z")
[The free-fall continues - not! 😉](https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/11/03/morning-plum-hillary-may-be-changing-minds-on-benghazi-emails/?wpmm=1&wpisrc=nl_p1most) > [@](#): > > 48 percent of Americans now say Clinton’s use of a private email server is not important to their presidential vote, versus 42 percent who say the opposite. That’s a net nine point swing from earlier this month, when more said it was important by 47-44. > > The poll also finds that Americans say by 40-27 that the probe into the Benghazi attacks is “unfair and too partisan,” rather than “fair and impartial.” Last month the gap was smaller, at 36-29. Not that all minds are capable of changing: > [@](#): > > Republicans think by 52-18 that the Benghazi probe is “fair and impartial” rather than “unfair and partisan.” Seventy five percent of Republicans say the email story is important to their presidential vote. On both of these a plurality of independents sides with the American people overall and against Republicans. > > Meanwhile, only seven percent of Republicans are satisfied with Clinton’s answers on Benghazi, versus 74 percent who aren’t. (A plurality of independents are unsatisfied, but that number is still down at a low 33 percent.) All of which suggests the degree to which these stories remain preoccupations of the GOP base. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458/1440 "2015-11-03T20:25:40Z")
I’ll use Nate Silver’s term and say that the “death spiral” has indeed ended. Just as the media wanted it too, since now we have a horse race. If she fell too far, no more horse race, so it was time to start being more bullish on her. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=71) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-un-fork-hillary-thread/717458.md?page=73)