# The Great Wall: China's best kept secret?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 15, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357 "2007-02-15T16:47:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/1 "2007-02-15T16:47:32Z")
On some history documentary (possibly on the All Hitler, All the Time channel) a claim was alluded to, if not outright stated, that the Great Wall was unknown outside of China for most of its history. In fact, the Chinese tried to keep its existance hidden, as a sort of embarassment. It was not until Nixon opened up relations that the Wall became known to the west. It was around this time that Ripley’s listed the Wall as a little-known curiosity.
This would mean, among other things, that the putative only man-made structure that can be seen form space was in fact not seen at the time of the Apollo missions.
I find this all a little hard to believe. Is it possible that no one in the west had any inkling of the structure through most of the 20th century?
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### Author:  [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/2 "2007-02-15T16:49:12Z")
Nah, I remember things before Nixon, and I knew about the Great Wall.
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/3 "2007-02-15T16:50:12Z")
Actually, that’s an Urban Legend. You cannot see the Great Wall from space. I believe Snopes has something on that.
In fact, despite that Urban Legend having been thorughly debunked for years, it was not until China put its own man into orbit, and he returned and verified it was true, that you cannot see it from space, that it was finally given heavy media coverage in China, debunking the myth.
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/4 "2007-02-15T16:51:37Z")
[QUOTE=Rube E. Tewesday]
Nah, I remember things before Nixon, and I knew about the Great Wall.
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, and I learned about the Great Wall in school, long before Nixon was president.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/5 "2007-02-15T17:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
Actually, that’s an Urban Legend. You cannot see the Great Wall from space. I believe Snopes has something on that.
[/QUOTE]
That’s why I said putative.
I too remember hearing about the Wall before Nixon came along. I then try to figure out when that might have been, and I’m not so sure any more.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/6 "2007-02-15T17:11:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Actually, that’s an Urban Legend. You cannot see the Great Wall from space. I believe Snopes has something on that.
Well, you can, if by “space” you mean “low Earth orbit”. The urban legend part is that you can see it from the Moon (not with the naked eye), or that it’s the _only_ man-made thing visible from space (lots of things are easier).
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### Author:  [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/7 "2007-02-15T17:12:02Z")
Ripley’s cartoon was from 1932. Somewhat earlier than Nixon.
> **[Great Wall of China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China)**
>
> The Great Wall of China is a series of fortifications in China. They were built across the historical northern borders of ancient Chinese states and Imperial China as protection against various nomadic groups from the Eurasian Steppe. The first walls date to the 7th century BC; these were joined together in the Qin dynasty. Successive dynasties expanded the wall system; the best-known sections were built by the Ming dynasty (1368–1644). To aid in defense, the Great Wall utilized watchtowers, tr...
> [@](#):
>
> Ripley’s Believe It or Not! cartoon from May 1932 makes the claim that the wall is “the mightiest work of man, the only one that would be visible to the human eye from the moon” and Richard Halliburton’s 1938 book Second Book of Marvels makes a similar claim. This belief has persisted, assuming urban legend status, sometimes even entering school textbooks. Arthur Waldron, author of the most authoritative history of the Great Wall, has speculated that the belief might go back to the fascination with the “canals” once believed to exist on Mars. (The logic was simple: If people on Earth can see the Martians’ canals, the Martians might be able to see the Great Wall.)
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/8 "2007-02-15T17:12:58Z")
Wikipedia pegs the claim that the Great wall can be seen from space as a Ripley’s Believe It or Not mention in May 1932, so it’s been known at least that long.
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### Author:  [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/9 "2007-02-15T17:14:26Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos]
Well, you can, if by “space” you mean “low Earth orbit”. The urban legend part is that you can see it from the Moon (not with the naked eye), or that it’s the _only_ man-made thing visible from space (lots of things are easier).
[/QUOTE]
Exapno beat me above.
But the Wikipedia entry also says:
Astronaut William Pogue thought he had seen it from Skylab but discovered he was actually looking at the Grand Canal of China near Beijing. He spotted the Great Wall with binoculars, but said that “it wasn’t visible to the unaided eye.” US Senator Jake Garn claimed to be able to see the Great Wall with the naked eye from a space shuttle orbit in the early 1980s, but his claim has been disputed by several US astronauts. Chinese astronaut Yang Liwei said he could not see it at all.
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### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/10 "2007-02-15T17:36:41Z")
I can certainly believe that the wall’s existance was not widely known about in the West until perhaps the 19th Century. Prior to this, very few Western travellers made it to China and even fewer went back to the West. I wouldn’t say that NO ONE knew about it, but this being before the age of photography and mass media, why would people on the street believe you even if you were one of the few people who had seen it?
The Russians would have had contact with the Manchus in the late 15th Century, but in Manchuria, no where near the Ming Wall, so it’s unlikely that they would have any extensive knowldedge of it. Imperial China in the 16th Century was a lot bigger than China is today, and present day China’s borders still extend some ways past where the Great Wall stands. From the 16th to teh 19th Century, the Wall would have been deep in the interior of the empire.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/11 "2007-02-15T18:40:42Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]
I can certainly believe that the wall’s existance was not widely known about in the West until perhaps the 19th Century. Prior to this, very few Western travellers made it to China and even fewer went back to the West.
[/QUOTE]
That would be my guess as well. The mid 19th century saw a huge influx of Chinese into the US. Surely at least a few of them talked about it.
So what of China, in general, being ashamed of the Wall? The documentary mentioned in the OP said that they thought of it as a monument to class oppression. That’s an idea contrary to communist ideals, no?
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### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/12 "2007-02-15T18:49:24Z")
Well, I don’t know about the All Hitler, All the time Channel, since I don’t watch television, but a quick glance at the Chinese national anthem should dissuade you of any truth in that ridiculous claim.
> [@](#):
>
> Arise!
> All who refuse to be slaves!
> Let our flesh and blood become our **new Great Wall!**
> As the Chinese nation faces its greatest peril,
> All forcefully expend their last cries.
> Arise! Arise! Arise!
> May our million hearts beat as one,
> Brave the enemy’s fire,
> March on!
> Brave the enemy’s fire,
> March on!
> March on!
> March on!
> On!
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/13 "2007-02-15T18:56:09Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]
a quick glance at the Chinese national anthem should dissuade you of any truth in that ridiculous claim.
[/QUOTE]
Ah. Well, there you go.
Of course, those lyrics reveal the Chinese to be really bad at math, or at least taking censuses.
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### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/14 "2007-02-15T19:05:37Z")
The proverbial term “萬眾一心” would be literally translated as “ten thousand people of one heart” and used to describe any large co-operative effort. 😉
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### Author:  [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/15 "2007-02-15T19:10:09Z")
Waldron’s book - cited in the Wikipedia entry - discusses the development of western knowledge and myths about the Wall in detail.
There are scattered early vague stories of a large wall somewhere in eastern Asia, such as the one imprisoning Gog and Magog, which may ultimately derive from rumours about it. He notes a much more definite reference from 1559 and then western mentions of the Wall start to come in thick and fast in the 17th century. It features heavily in Athanasius Kircher’s influential 1667 book about China.
By the 18th century knowledge of it was a commonplace, though as an exotic distant wonder, as illustrated by Johnson jokingly suggesting that Boswell aspire to the fame of travelling to see it. But you also get people suggesting that the stories about it were exaggerated.
Where there may be a grain of underlying truth is that - as Waldron also discusses - Chinese attitudes towards the Wall in the 19th and 20th centuries were much more ambivalent, when not outright indifferent. Some saw it as having been a waste of life and effort. Waldron’s argument is that it only becomes a simple symbol of national pride following the Japanese invasion in WWII.
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### Author:  [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/16 "2007-02-15T19:13:31Z")
I regret to announce the following corrections:
> [@](#):
>
> The Russians would have had contact with the Manchus in the late **17th** Century, but in Manchuria, no where near the Ming Wall, so it’s unlikely that they would have any extensive knowldedge of it. Imperial China in the **17th** Century was a lot bigger than China is today, and present day China’s borders still extend some ways past where the Great Wall stands. From the **17th** to teh 19th Century, the Wall would have been deep in the interior of the empire.
Damn you and your infidel naming conventions. :smack:
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/17 "2007-02-15T19:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=Throatwarbler Mangrove]
The proverbial term “萬眾一心” would be literally translated as “ten thousand people of one heart” and used to describe any large co-operative effort. 😉
[/QUOTE]
I would translate it as “four box.” 😃
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/18 "2007-02-15T20:00:26Z")
I’ve never seen the great wall, but I have read that there’s a very heavy Marxist interpretation at the tourist sites…that the wall was built by oppressed and suffering peasants by orders of the bloodsucking aristocracy and their running dogs. Which isn’t too far from the truth.
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### Author:  [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/19 "2007-02-15T20:04:48Z")
Excellent stuff, **bonzer**.
One has to wonder what Nixon had to do with anything, other than possibly making it possible for westerners to see the thing for the first time in a long time. I also have to wonder why The History Channel (or whoever) thinks that facts are optional.
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### Author:  [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)
#### Post date: [February 15, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-wall-chinas-best-kept-secret/392357/20 "2007-02-15T20:28:14Z")
Now, it’s interesting that Marco Polo never mentions the Great Wall. (He also doesn’t mention tea, or women with bound feet.)
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