# The Greatest American Musical **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 16, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212 "2008-10-16T15:24:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/41 "2008-10-17T00:50:11Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Pippen is highly over rated. Actually, it’s not. Well, except by people who overrate it. Pippen has a general reputation of being not very good. I’ve always heard it as a given that the reason Fosse made such a huge production out of it–ushering in the era of the overproduced megamusical, thankyouverymuch\*–was that the show itself was so weak. I tend to agree. It’s got some good songs, but it just does not stand on its own as a show. Without Fosse’s showmanship, it woulda been a flop, and forgotten. \*NOT ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/42 "2008-10-17T00:54:13Z")
**SHOW BOAT** - it’s almost hard to believe that this was produced in 1927. It dealt with topics that just weren’t talked about in “light” entertainment, let alone musicals. Miscegenation, addiction, race in general, even the notion that, as Julie and then Mangolia learn,_True Love_ isn’t enough. Then there’s the music of course- that Kern kid’s gonna be big, you wait and see. Edna Ferber was called “Acid Tongue” by her friends- she wasn’t known for being super sweet or sentimental. She laughed at the concept of her novel _Show Boat_ being musicalized and didn’t even want to meet with Kern. When he met with her, per legend, all he did was sit down at the piano and play _Ol’ Man River_ (don’t know if Robeson was the singer or not) and by the end Ferber was, by her own version, in tears- something that never happened to her. Now consider that less than a decade before the show opened there had been a near riot by white dancers expected to dance on stage with Bert Williams (a black man who performed in blackface and was the biggest star of his day), and there was even some public outcry as well as to whether it was legal. Along comes a musical that addresses a mixed race couple (albeit one passing for white), and the troubles that living as a white woman with a secret cause this woman (including ultimately her husband and her health). Then there’s Gaylord, handsome and dashing and romantic- but rather than leave it there, he’s also completely immature and irresponsible and it does not end happily ever after. Plotwise I actually prefer the 1950s movie re-make. The 1920s original goes a generation too long while the Howard Keel/Kathryn Grayson version ends about 30 years earlier, and I love the scene with Gardner’s Julie’s meeting of Ravenall which isn’t in the earlier one. In other respects though, the 1936 film just can’t be freaking touched: while Keel was great and Grayson’s good and Agnes Moorehead and Joe E. Brown were always welcome additions to a cast, Irene Dunne, Helen Morgan, Paul Robeson, Hattie McDaniel- one of those rare total dream casts. Stands the test of time, has depth, and the score is on par with any ever written, and this was on Broadway years before the dread Judy and Mickey were saying “let’s put on a show”. Obligatory YouTubes: [Robeson singing Ol’ Man River](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRiZiVvdX4g) [Helen Morgan sings Bill](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HeasqkO1Ko) [Can’t Help Lovin’ Dat Man](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QuqnM5HbBI)(“look at that gal shuffle!”) A black movie critic on a GWTW documentary I watched praised McDaniel’s performance in spite of how embarassed some post Civil Rights Era viewers find it, saying that what makes it pop is that Hattie didn’t play it for laughs (though she was comedically gifted) but was “coming from a real place”. This is also very evident in Show Boat- for all the limits imposed upon her by Hollywood, “High Hat Hattie” was actually a very intellectual actress- notice some little touches she puts in this that raise the character above stereotype. (Also remember that Julie was raised by and around black people and is one of them, though it’s a secret.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/43 "2008-10-17T01:03:12Z")
Meant to add to the above about McDaniel’s performance: perhaps I’m overanalyzing but I read the following in that scene: “something’s not right here… ohhhhh… got it… she’s such a sweet person, I’m not going to tell a soul, I’m not even going to let her know I know”. Also, _Show Boat_ was directed by James Whale, best known as the director of _Frankenstein_ and _Bride of Frankenstein_ and for Ian McKellen’s portrayal of the last days of his life in _Gods and Monsters_ (a film I totally recommend). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/44 "2008-10-17T01:11:50Z")
One more thing and then I’ll hush: in the 1936 _Ol’ Man River_ number, I love the cutaways. I’m wondering if Whale, an openly gay man in a business filled with closet cases and the son of a minister and as such a man who probably understood stupidity and prejudice [and drinking] created those; they add great depth. Of course the line “I’m tired of livin’ and scared of dyin’” doesn’t need a lot of help to get chills. Those who don’t know Robeson’s story- [worth a read](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robeson)- he’s long overdue for a novel. In honor of his later travels, [another song about a boat](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfsWoNpHg2s&feature=related) sung by him. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/45 "2008-10-17T01:32:24Z")
Man! I hate getting to these parties late! > [@NAF1138](#): > > IMHO you made the right choice with Sunday in the Park. I love Into the Woods, but the second act is weak. I know this debate has played out, but I wanna throw in my two cents: Parts of the second act are weak; the first 20min of it, where first we have to sit through another (albeit shorter) round of exposition, and then the awful awful scene where the narrator goes on about telling the story, and everyone is arguing with the giant offstage. Just horrendous, IMHO. However, the rest of the second act is great (as **Skald** says, some amazing numbers there). Part of the problem with the second act is, I think, that after watching the fairy tale unfold in the first act, it is kind of unpleasant to our psyches to have to watch something that has turned a much darker shade of real, with characters who are indecisive and flawed. The contrast is hard to take on a subconscious level, I think. > [@NAF1138](#): > > Let me change the subject and get into a different fight with someone. > > Stephen Schwartz is a hack and none of his work belongs within spitting distance of this list. Hear hear! I think _Godspell_ is a piece of garbage. _Pippin_ is shaky, incoherent at times, and has more bad songs than good . . . and yet, I kind of like it. I did the show once, and while I didn’t start liking it, the ending made up for most of the crap that happened before. Despite all its flaws, Pippin’s struggle is presented compellingly, and the Leading Player, if played right, is an incredible role . . . a sort of spectral demonic, self-destructive inner voice brought to life. But yeah, Schwartz is far from a “great.” ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/46 "2008-10-17T03:08:06Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > The Music Man. > Stage or screen. > > It isn’t the best musical, nor the best musical by an American. Still, it is very, very, very good and it feels like America (if that makes sense). It sings, and patters, and dances, and talks Americana. One summer night my mother and I got on a bus and went downtown. We ate Chinese food at King Fong’s and saw The Music Man at the Orpheum Theater. We caught the bus back home, and stopped for an ice cream cone on the walk back from the bus stop. I remember this night like it was yesterday. It was forty six years ago, I was nine years old. The Music Man gets my vote ---
**Author:** ![Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Key_Lime_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/47 "2008-10-17T03:11:52Z")
Without reading the thread, I’d vote: 1. **West Side Story** 2. **Annie** 3. **A Chorus Line** ETA: I was thinking of stage, not film, in disregard of the last part of the OP. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/48 "2008-10-17T04:05:00Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Hear hear! I think _Godspell_ is a piece of garbage. A friend of mine who saw a professional production with me (updated with a lot of annoying then-current references from _Sixth Sense_ and _Titanic_ and other pop culture sources) described it as looking like “something the local Methodist youth minister would put on trying to make Christianity hip for the kiddies”, and I agree. I like some of the music (_Where are you Going_ and the book song _Alas for You_) but I **HATE HATE HATE** the prologue, [Tower of Babble](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_tHsJqL-bM). Well, actually, I _like_ that song, but I hate its inclusion. It’s completely out of place. It seems to imply that Socrates/St. Augustine/Martin Luther/etc. all _led_ to Jesus, or else that they all were inspired by Jesus (even the ones before him) or were made irrelevant by Jesus- not really sure _what_ the point is. It’s a “meanwhile in another musical, one about the history of philosophy…” moment. **Pippin** has two songs I like- _Glory_ and _Take it Easy_. I think it’s much better than Godspell, but it’s not on my favorites. I didn’t care for _Children of Eden_ at all. * * * Switching gears altogether: The last original musical (i.e. not a revamping or revival or movie made into musical) was **Ragtime**. Easily a permanent spot on my Favorite Five lists, only the position fluctuates. (Yes, I know it’s been a novel and a movie, but the musical itself is not derived from the movie [and is in fact closer to the book than the movie was]). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/49 "2008-10-17T04:11:09Z")
For some reason I thought _Fiddler_ premiered in London (I knew its creators were American), but nope. Anyway, it’s HIGH up the list. I won’t repeat the whole “so Japanese” story again, but it’s unbelievable how simultaneously specific it is (Ukrainian Jews ca. 1905) and how universal (as applicable to 21st century people in Alabama/Taiwan/Venezuela as to turn of the century Jews). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/50 "2008-10-17T04:13:23Z")
BTW, do you count _My Fair Lady_ as an American Musical? It’s set in London and based on a play by Shaw, but its composer\* and lyricist were American and it shattered box office and cast recording records for many years. \*Naturalized anyway: Frederick Leowe was a German Jew who came here with his family in the 1920s as resident aliens but stayed because of Hitler. He was later naturalized. Alan Jay Lerner was a New Yorker. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/51 "2008-10-17T04:19:08Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > A friend of mine who saw a professional production with me (updated with a lot of annoying then-current references from _Sixth Sense_ and _Titanic_ and other pop culture sources) described it as looking like “something the local Methodist youth minister would put on trying to make Christianity hip for the kiddies”, and I agree. I’ve only seen one production, and I got the creepiest, Jesus-as-lover vibe about the whole thing. I walked away feeling like Christian women all masturbate to Jesus iconography. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/52 "2008-10-17T13:13:55Z")
Sampiro, I was thinking about this thread all last evening and came in this morning to say that Show Boat is the Greatest American Musical, only to find that you have said it all for me. Bravo. And thank you. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/53 "2008-10-17T13:57:16Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > **South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut** [ot]I saw this mentioned in a completely different context the other day, and had a :smack: moment when I got the title for the first time. In my defense, I’ve never seen the movie – or a full episode of the show, for that matter.[/ot] ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/54 "2008-10-17T14:02:23Z")
Basically, I hate you posters. I came into this discussion with my pick made, but as I read the tread, I went. “Good point,” “Yeah, that one’s good too,” “How could I forget that one”, “Oh, yeah! That one’s great!” and so forth. So now a simple decision has become impossible. I hope you are happy. The only thing I am sure of is that “_Kent State - the Musical_” (which died a painful and completely unnoticed death [deservedly so] off Broadway in the late '70s and was written by yours truly) is **not** the great American musical. (These days it would have been considered “Off, Off-Broadway”) edit complete. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/55 "2008-10-17T14:14:01Z")
> [@TV\_time](#): > > Basically, I hate you posters. I came into this discussion with my pick made, but as I read the tread, I went. “Good point,” “Yeah, that one’s good too,” “How could I forget that one”, “Oh, yeah! That one’s great!” and so forth. > > So now a simple decision has become impossible. I hope you are happy. The only thing I am sure of is that “_Kent State - the Musical_” (which died a painful and completely unnoticed death [deservedly so] off Broadway in the late '70s and was written by yours truly) is **not** the great American musical. > > (These days it would have been considered “Off, Off-Broadway”) edit complete. You know, I have a hard time picturing _Kent State - The Musical_ but would love to read it sometime. Mostly because I can’t imagine what it would have been. Props for the bold idea. And I am glad some other people who think that \*Pippen \*doesn’t work as a show are posting. \*\*Lissner \*\*may be right that it is generally considered to be not very good, but my world has gotten a bit insular working in LA theatre and I never seem to meet people who have that opinion anymore. It’s nice occasionally be reminded that the people I work with aren’t actually the entire world, they are just my entire world (for now). ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/56 "2008-10-17T14:32:12Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > The last original musical (i.e. not a revamping or revival or movie made into musical) was **Ragtime**. Easily a permanent spot on my Favorite Five lists, only the position fluctuates. (Yes, I know it’s been a novel and a movie, but the musical itself is not derived from the movie [and is in fact closer to the book than the movie was]). There have been plenty of original musicals since then ( **Bat-Boy** , **Avenue Q** , **Urinetown** to name 3 off the top of my head) and **Ragtime** wasn’t even original–came from a book (and, IIRC, a movie). Did you mean **Rags**? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/57 "2008-10-17T15:03:53Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > There have been plenty of original musicals since then ( **Bat-Boy** , **Avenue Q** , **Urinetown** to name 3 off the top of my head) and **Ragtime** wasn’t even original–came from a book (and, IIRC, a movie). Did you mean **Rags**? True. I went back and looked at **Sampiro’s** quote and I am fairly sure he did mean _Ragtime_. I didn’t care for Ragtime, but a lot of that has to do with me not liking the source material. It is a preachy book and turned into an even more preachy show. It’s been forever since I saw it (it was in LA in '98 I think) so it’s possible my tastes have changed. I did like what they did with the music though. I don’t know that I would call it all that original though. It’s very classic old school Broadway in it’s production, and it is sourced from a novel. I think that the list Fenris posts is a good list of genuinely original, and good\*, show’s that have been created in the last 10 years or so. I would throw \*Hedwig \* and \*The Drowsy Chaperone \*up there too. The musical as a real artform isn’t dead, it’s just in the hospital. \*there are many original musicals made every year. But most of them aren’t worth talking about. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/58 "2008-10-17T17:19:02Z")
If we’re discussing original recent musicals, I am currently SAVAGELY fond of **Spring Awakening**. It’s hard to call it an “American” musical, as it’s set in 1890s Germany, but the music is fantastic and the travelling production we saw in San Francisco was excellent. It has a very **Rent** -esque feel to it in many ways. We (my girlfriend and I) also really enjoyed **The Drowsy Chaperone** , which is just a darn good fun time at the theater. Oh, and y’all need to stop bashing **Pippin** , as the highlight of my musical life was conducting the pit orchestra for a production of it. And its best song, far and away, is **The Finale** , which is one of only 3 musical songs that always makes me want to get up and dance. (The other two are both from Great American Musicals… **Siddown You’re Rocking the Boat** from **Guys and Dolls** and **You Can’t Stop the Beat** from **Hairspray**.) ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/59 "2008-10-17T17:27:09Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If we’re discussing original recent musicals, I am currently SAVAGELY fond of **Spring Awakening**. It’s hard to call it an “American” musical, as it’s set in 1890s Germany, but the music is fantastic and the travelling production we saw in San Francisco was excellent. I hear so much good about _Spring Awakening_ that I am almost afraid to see it. I keep remembering how much I was looking forward to seeing _Rent_, and then the crushing disapointment after having seen it. Not that it was really that bad, I just had unrealistically high expectations. I very much like what I have heard of the music though. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212/60 "2008-10-17T18:48:24Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Stephen Schwartz is a hack and none of his work belongs within spitting distance of this list. I will not agree. _Pippin_ blows, _Wicked_ is aggressively horrible (I blame the writer of the really bad book for that as much as Schwartz, though), and _Godspell_ is mostly incomprehensible without the aid of really good drugs. But if you made a list of the twenty greatest musical theatre songs ever written, one of Schwartz’s would be on there - and not in the bottom third - and that’s good enough to get him within spitting distance, anyway. But to answer the question: are we asking “What is the greatest musical written by Americans?” Or “What is the greatest musical about Americans?” I’m assuming the former, because otherwise, 90% of the answers given in this thread don’t apply, including both of mine. So I’ll say: Runner-up: _Sweeney Todd_, which is a perfect thing, as far as I am concerned. But because its influence is somewhat less than it deserves, it isn’t quite the “greatest.” The _best_, with the company of _The Last Five Years_ and _Parade_ and _Ragtime_ and _Showboat_, but not the greatest. The greatest, for me, is _Fiddler on the Roof_. Much of what Sampiro has said about _La Mancha_ applies equally to _Fiddler_, and _Fiddler_ came along a year before _La Mancha_, and has a better book. I think _La Mancha_ has some interminably slow points, and while the best songs in the show are great the lesser songs drag the whole show down. _Fiddler_ has no lesser songs. The opening number, particularly with the sort of choreography it got in its original incarnation, is one of the two or three best opening numbers of all time. “Sunrise, Sunset” and “Far from the Home I Love” are beautiful songs. And of course the show has themes and characters to which very nearly everyone in the world can connect. It gets my vote. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american-musical/468212.md?page=4)