# The Greatest American **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 27, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750 "2005-05-27T13:27:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/61 "2005-05-30T02:45:45Z")
Wow! Glad to see the spirited debate that resulted from my original post. Yes, the AOL/Discovery Channel list of 100 is a bit asinine, and it’s 'way too top-heavy with late 20th century/early 21st century entertainers and pop celebrities, but it also has some weighty names. I agree with those who’ve noted that writers and scientists are underrepresented. I also have to say, I bow to no one in my admiration of Benjamin Franklin (Franklin is, I kid you not, my middle name), for all of the reasons stated. He was an amazing man, well ahead of his time. However, his unmatched diplomatic skills would have availed him nothing had not Washington and other American military leaders in the field (esp. Gates at Saratoga, although his luck turned bad when he fought the British in the South) been winning battles, keeping the Continental Army in the game, and showing the French that the colonists actually had the potential to beat the British. After the war, Franklin was president of Pennsylvania and an honored elder statesman, and his attendance at the Constitutional Convention and his support of ratification were key. His national impact afterwards was quite limited, however, esp. by comparison to Washington, who of course served two terms as President and then peacefully yielded power to his duly-elected successor, John Adams. That’s why I’d still put Washington at #1. BTW, Washington and Franklin respected each other enormously, and their correspondence makes for interesting reading. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/62 "2005-05-30T02:53:25Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Benjamin Franklin ALL THE BLEEDING WAY. Not to diminish Washington, Jefferson, etc., but this man _was_ America to millions of Europeans. Yes, I know that he was a womanizer and wasn’t a good husband/dad and had his faults and hypocrisies, but he was also: > > 1- a major proponent and practitioner of critical thinking and intellectual curiosity (“M’sieu Electrique”) > 2- a major believer and practitioner of entrepreneurial endeavors (he was the 15th child of a lower-middle class candle maker yet was able to retire in his forties and died one of the wealthiest men in the new nation) > 3- a philanthropist of the most noble form: he didn’t just throw spare change at a problem, he donated his time and his energies, could have trebled his fortune by protecting his inventions (lightning rods, Franklin stove, bifocals, etc.) but decided he was wealthy enough and the people needed these items more than he needed the extra coin), etc. > 4- he was witty and charming and an able diplomat while at the same time a shrewd observant of human character and hard-as-nails when he had to be- the great American compromise twixt idealism and realism > 5- He was one of the first men to be unapologetically American- he lived a fourth of his long life in England and France but accepted from Jump St. that as an American he was a different creature, but not even slightly did he accept that he was a lesser creature > 6- One of the early men of importance to see the evils of slavery (he freed his own slaves and headed the oldest abolition society, arguing against it not just as an injustice but as an economic idiocy [a position far more likely to get attention]) > Washington was an okay general and a great politician, but Franklin’s achievements in diplomacy (loans, ships, loans, soldiers, loans, officers, loans, etc. from the French, refusal to even sit at the table with British diplomats until they acknowledged American independence, etc.) did far more to forge the nation. And, to quote one of his biographers (I can’t remember which), “Franklin is the founding father who winks at you.”) Ok, you’ve sold me. Ben Franklin moves to the top of my list. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/63 "2005-05-30T03:14:25Z")
The Washington Post’s Gene Weingarten did a pretty funny piece where he called up a discovery flack and made her try to justify the list. It’s not on the web yet but I’ll link to it when it is. (You’ll probably have to register but you should anyway, the Post’s a good paper.) I’d go with Lincoln, Hamilton, Franklin, Edison, and MLK jr. High school civics-ish I know, but what’re ya gonna do? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/64 "2005-05-30T03:29:00Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > The Washington Post’s Gene Weingarten did a pretty funny piece where he called up a discovery flack and made her try to justify the list. It’s not on the web yet but I’ll link to it when it is. (You’ll probably have to register but you should anyway, the Post’s a good paper.) Sounds good, I’ll look for it. > [@](#): > > I’d go with Lincoln, Hamilton, Franklin, Edison, and MLK jr. High school civics-ish I know, but what’re ya gonna do? 🙂 As with any list of the “Top 100 \_\_\_\_\_ Of All Time,” there’s a reason the obvious choices are so obvious. I think sometimes people try to get to clever with these things. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/65 "2005-05-30T15:31:40Z")
I suspect that many of the pop icons are on the list to make it more accessible to the historically ignorant among us. The list makers don’t want them to feel alienated. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/66 "2005-05-30T17:32:09Z")
Norman Borlaug. His agricultural techniques saved over a billion lived Maurice Hilleman. he made over 40 vaccines, saving hundreds of millions of lives. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/67 "2005-05-30T17:54:50Z")
[QUOTE=Wesley Clark] Norman Borlaug. His agricultural techniques saved over a billion lived [QUOTE] For some reason I thought he was Scandinavian. I looked it up and unless Cresco, Iowa was somehow ceded to Sweden after the First World War he’s American. This being the case, I’ll second him. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/68 "2005-05-31T18:10:03Z")
I would nominate any or all of the Founding Fathers. The Constitution is a stroke of genius. I would also nominate Dr. Jonas Salk, who came up with the polio vaccine and saved no-one-will-ever-know-how-many hundreds of thousands of lives. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/69 "2005-06-01T04:22:44Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > I would also nominate Dr. Jonas Salk, who came up with the polio vaccine and saved no-one-will-ever-know-how-many hundreds of thousands of lives. Interesting tidbit-I live in Pittsburgh, where Salk created his vaccine, and the school nurse at my high school worked with Dr. Salk during the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Quint](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/76d3ee/32.png) [@Quint](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quint)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/70 "2005-06-01T04:23:16Z")
> [@Kid\_A](#): > > The equivalent Canadian list. > > 1 Tommy Douglas > 2 Terry Fox > 3 Pierre Elliott Trudeau > 4 Sir Frederick Banting > 5 David Suzuki > 6 Lester B. Pearson > 7 Don Cherry > 8 Sir John A. Macdonald > 9 Alexander Graham Bell > 10 Wayne Gretzky > > Not bad. So long as we toss out Mr. Cherry. After the top ten, the Canadian list is a joke. Let’s see if the final American list can compete with this level of pop- culture idiocy. Picks 11 to 100 include: Shanaia Twain (the 18th greatest Canadian of all time) Mike Myers (20th) Celine Dion (Unfathomably, the 27th greatest Canadian ever to live. Shoot me now.) Jim Carrey (#29 in terms of hisorical Canadian greats.Rrriiiiiight.) Michael J Fox (32) Gordon Lightfoot (33) _Winnipeg Radio Personality_ Hal Anderson (34) the inimitable hand puppeteer Mr DressUp (36) professional wrestler Bret “hitman” Hart (39) Avril Lavigne (yes ferchrissakes, Avril Fucking Lavigne at #40) John Candy (41) Rick Mercer (50) Pamela Anderson (for what, inventing home porn? for pioneering subcutaneous personal flotation devices? #51) William Shatner (ze goggles, zey do nossink 56) Burton Cummings (seriously, what the fuck??? 65) Sarah Machlachlan (75) Dan Akroyd (presumably for portraying both the skinny _and_ the fat Blues Brother #82) Bryan Adams (at least he has pretensions of being a photographer- 90) Joni Mitchell (I’d let her in for that [“case of you”](http://www.jonimitchell.com/BSNLyrics/CaseOfYou.html) song, but still!- 93) Anne Murray (94) and the inimitable (literally- any normal person trying to imitate this man singing will have an aneurism) Geddy Lee (wailing in at 96). That’s not even bothering to mention the 10 hockey players on the list. Any Canadian wanting to ridicule the American list is seriously irony impaired… or perhaps just seriously impaired. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/71 "2005-06-01T13:27:34Z")
I’m always surprised (though I shouldn’t be) as how these lists always leave off **John D. Rockefeller** in favor of Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or some more recent “titan.” Of the [top 30 largest companies](http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=18&passYear=2005&passListType=Company&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMany=100&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield1%2C%2Bstringfield2&resultsSortCategoryName=rank&passKeyword=&category1=category&category2=category&fromColumnClick=true) on the planet, Rockefeller created 10% of them - Exxon/Mobil, Conoco/Phillips. and Chevron/Texaco (Phillips and Texaco were not part of the original Standard Oil Trust, but merged with companies that were.) Gates, however, has one company barely in the top 50. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/72 "2005-06-01T18:48:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Of the [top 30 largest companies](http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=18&passYear=2005&passListType=Company&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMany=100&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield1%2C%2Bstringfield2&resultsSortCategoryName=rank&passKeyword=&category1=category&category2=category&fromColumnClick=true) on the planet, Rockefeller created 10% of them - Exxon/Mobil, Conoco/Phillips. and Chevron/Texaco (Phillips and Texaco were not part of the original Standard Oil Trust, but merged with companies that were.) _Pssssst!_ This is the “Greatest American” thread, not the _worst._😉 ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/73 "2005-06-02T03:29:38Z")
I consider John D. to _be_ one of the greatest Americans, and likely the one who has least received his due recognition. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/74 "2005-06-02T09:59:29Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > _Pssssst!_ This is the “Greatest American” thread, not the _worst._😉 You do not consider achievements in capitalism to be great? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/75 "2005-06-02T13:04:48Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > The Washington Post’s Gene Weingarten did a pretty funny piece where he called up a discovery flack and made her try to justify the list. It’s not on the web yet but I’ll link to it when it is. (You’ll probably have to register but you should anyway, the Post’s a good paper.) Yeah, The Post is great. [Here’s the column.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/24/AR2005052401260.html) My favorite exchange? > [@](#): > > Me: I notice we seem to be inspired by those great Americans who espoused the Nazi ideology. On the list are Charles Lindbergh, who was a great fan of the Third Reich, and Henry Ford, who believed Jews were in a cabal with the devil, and Mel Gibson, whose beloved daddy is a famous Holocaust denier. My question is: The public actually missed George Lincoln Rockwell, the longtime head of the American Nazi party. Do you think that was an oversight? > > Elizabeth: See, I think the list is working! We’re having a dialogue, which is what this is all about. I hope the public is as interested as you are in discussing this list, so they all tune in and vote. > > Me: You are very good. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/76 "2005-06-02T17:56:46Z")
Let’s all register and vote for Cecil! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/77 "2005-06-02T19:01:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You do not consider achievements in capitalism to be great? I consider it value-neutral, myself. The acquisition of wealth/power/fame is neither good nro evil; it’s how one uses that wealth/power/fame that matters. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/78 "2005-06-02T19:42:30Z")
Alexander Hamilton–very brilliant man. Damn Aaron Burr! John Adams–I like him. James Monroe–w/o his Dcotrine, we wouldn’t be here. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin of course. Lincoln Grant/Lee FDR I can’t even comment on the list. We are one stupid, navel gazing, moronic culture. Bah. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/79 "2005-06-02T19:49:04Z")
Wait, no Edgar Allan Poe? Inventor of the mystery novel, refiner of the short story, and the father of the horror story? The one whom most American writers consider the father of American writing? Yeesh. Oh, Washington is tops, Lincoln a moderately distant second. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2005, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750/80 "2005-06-02T21:29:59Z")
Throw my vote in for Lincoln. Although he had his faults (especially in hindsight), the man held this country together and almost out of sheer will at times. I would second Ben Franklin; however, it is really hard to single out one person from the amazing range of contributors from that time period: Washington Jefferson Hamilton Madison Monroe Adams et cetera (he was the most important! 🙂 ) Lincoln, on the other hand, seemed to be a bastion of strength and conviction that refused to let our nation become torn apart. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-american/305750.md?page=5)