# The Greatest Baseball Player **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 4, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811 "2008-06-04T23:32:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/21 "2008-06-05T00:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=Snarky\_Kong] No, it’s about the whole thing. That’s how I read it. I’m just commenting that one player’s opinion isn’t a definitive bit of evidence on the relative quality of two players. [/QUOTE] That’s fair, but if he is praising himself in the same statement and I tend to value his opinion. His book on hitting was considered a mainstay for years. He lived baseball, talk baseball and taught baseball, I think he was making a frank assessment and not just saying a nice thing. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/22 "2008-06-05T01:36:11Z")
If Babe Ruth had never played a single game in the outfield, he would be on THE short list of the Greatest Pitchers Ever. Now, add in the fact that he hit 714 home runs, forever changed the way the game of baseball is perceived by the public, and inspired 76 years of excellent angsty baseball writing from massachusetts, and I just can’t see what all the fuss is about. 1. Ruth 2. Bonds (although by the time he’s done, ARod will rank here). 3. Cobb 4. Mays 5. T. Williams ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/23 "2008-06-05T01:42:10Z")
Ruth. Then I think there is a strong, strong case to be made for the only guy to outdistance him in that inaugural Hall of Fame vote - Ty Cobb. I think there is a strong enough case that I would put Cobb no.2 \* Cobb is widely credited with setting 90 Major League Baseball records during his career.[5][6][7][8] He still holds several records as of 2007, including the highest career batting average (.367) and most career batting titles with 12 (or 11, depending on source).[9] He retained many other records for almost a half century or more, including most career hits until 1985 (4,191 or 4,189, depending on source),[10][11][unreliable source?] most career runs (2,245 or 2,246 depending on source) until 2001,[12] most career games played (3,035) and at bats (11,429 or 11,434 depending on source) until 1974,[13][14] and the modern record for most career stolen bases (892) until 1977.[1\* [link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ty_Cobb) ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/24 "2008-06-05T01:46:13Z")
I’d say Ruth first (that was fun and easy) Barry Bonds second (that was unpleasant, but necessary). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/25 "2008-06-05T01:46:53Z")
Bonds? I thought we were talking baseball players, not cheating scum. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/26 "2008-06-05T01:52:03Z")
At pitcher, it’s gotta be Walter Johnson. Beyond the sheer volume and impressiveness of his stats (both rate and counting) is the fact that he tended to do so well on horrible team. Teams record in games where he got the decision: 417-279 .599 Teams record when he didn’t get the decision 1142-1330 .462 If you neutralize his stats [here](http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/johnswa01.shtml), it gets really mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/27 "2008-06-05T01:53:22Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] As I said Williams admitted DiMaggio was the best ball player. Somewhere there is a quote where Ted actually said that he (Ted) was the best hitter of their generation but DiMaggio was the best player. Jim [/QUOTE] From a 1942 quote by DiMaggio > [@](#): > > I have been in baseball nine years—three in the minors and six up here—and the greatest hitter I have ever seen, bar none, is Ted Williams From Satchel Paige, in 1972 > [@](#): > > Josh(Gibson) was the greatest hitter I ever pitched to. and I pitched to everybody," Paige has said. “There’s been some great hitters–Williams, DiMaggio, Musial, Mays, Mantle. But none of them was as great as Josh. I used to get Williams out with my screwball on the outside. Musial, the same thing. DiMaggio, with my sidearm stuff. Mays, he’s no Josh. I got Mays with a fastball on his letters. Mantle had to bunt me. But, Josh, I had to throw sidearm curves to Josh, break it on the outside corner and pray. Break it inside, he’s just rip it.” > > Paige once attempted to fool Gibson with a fastball at Wrigley Field in a black all-star game. > > “He hit it so quick into the left field,” Paige says, “it bounced out and the third baseman tried to make a play on it. The third baseman thought it came off the wall, that’s how fast it came back. And that’s no lie.” > > ``` > Few reliable records were kept in the black leagues but the 6-foot, 1-inch, 215-pound righthanded hitter is to have hit 623 homers, as many as 84 in one year, each quite conceivable. > > ``` > > “Josh was the best hitter in the black leagues and he knew it,” say Monte Irvin, now an administrative aide in Commissioner Bowie Kuhn’s office, then a star with the Newark Eagles before joining the New York Giants. > > “One time he came into our dugout and told the kid we had pitching that day, ‘I’ll go easy on you, I won’t hit but two homers off you.’ He was as strong as two men. He had a classic swing, like Ted Williams. He attacked the ball. Everybody raved what a great catcher Roy Campanella was, and Campy was great. But he wasn’t as good as Josh, and Campy would be the first to admit it.” > > ``` > "But whenever I played on an all-star team in the black leagues with Josh, I played third base," Campanella says. "Henry Aaron, Mays, Musial, Williams, great hitters, but Josh Gibson was the best hitter I ever saw." > > ``` Just thought you might enjoy what some old timers said. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/28 "2008-06-05T02:01:16Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] From a 1942 quote by DiMaggio From Satchel Paige, in 1972 Just thought you might enjoy what some old timers said. [/QUOTE] By all accounts Gibson was truly special. The lack of stats, the variable ballparks and the damn rules that kept him from playing in the majors make it hard to judge. Buck O’Neil thought he was the best also. He might deserve the two hole on my list. I still put Babe first. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/29 "2008-06-05T02:03:53Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Bonds? I thought we were talking baseball players, not cheating scum. [/QUOTE] Yeah..I am surprised by the Bonds votes ---
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/30 "2008-06-05T02:06:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **What Exit?** > But you said “Greatest Baseball Player” not “Greatest Hitter”. > > Ruth wins no matter what but Williams was a hitter, he was an average fielder and average baserunner. Mays and DiMaggio were better all around players. > > As I said Williams admitted DiMaggio was the best ball player. Somewhere there is a quote where Ted actually said that he (Ted) was the best hitter of their generation but DiMaggio was the best player. > > Jim Yes, I’m speaking best player, not just hitter, and your points are valid. But defense is much harder to verify, statistically (see Derek Jeter.) And as much as I love Joe D., he robbed Williams twice for MVP ('41 and '47.) ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/31 "2008-06-05T02:10:45Z")
There is no such thing as best ever, Dead ball era was like ly Cobb. Best lifetime ave ever ,most stolen bases. etc. When Ruth hit 59 ,he hit more homers than every other team. No one was close. Next era was Williams as best pure hitter. Mays was a better all round player. He was better defensively and stolen bases. too, best of the steroid era was Bonds. Baseball has a long history and changes in the game make it hard to relate eras. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/32 "2008-06-05T02:21:18Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Fine is this solely about hitting? Or about all aspects of play? How much more valuable is a great Center Fielder than an average at best corner Outfielder? This is where the question lies for me. [/QUOTE] Well, it’s a fair question. DiMaggio was a legitimately great center fielder. However, the difference between them in hitting skill was not a small one, it was quite extreme. Williams’s career on base percentage was **eighty-four** points higher; his slugging percentage was 55 points higher. They were not comparable hitters, to my eyes. Williams was WAY better. Even if you account for the park difference, Williams was dramatically superior. I typed a lot of boring shit here figuring the offensive difference, then deleted it; the long and short of it is that for every full 154-game season Williams was adding _at least_ 20 more runs to his team than DiMaggio was with the bat, and that’s a lot. Now, you could argue that DiMaggio’s glove was worth more than 20 runs over Williams. I think that’s stretching it, but it’s possible. But even if it’s true. it’s worth bearing in mind that Williams played 500 games more than DiMaggio. Pound for pound I think they’re awfully close, but when you consider Williams’s career was really a lot longer - almost 30% longer - you have to think that counts for something, right? And that’s even though he lost MORE time to military service. Just my opinion, of course. DiMaggio was certainly a more complete and classic ballplayer; Williams was one dimensional. DiMaggio’s game would have been much more fun to watch and admire. But sometimes you have to admit brute force can trump elegance. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/33 "2008-06-05T02:43:12Z")
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee] Yes, I’m speaking best player, not just hitter, and your points are valid. But defense is much harder to verify, statistically (see Derek Jeter.) And as much as I love Joe D., he robbed Williams twice for MVP ('41 and '47.) [/QUOTE] I’ll never agree on '41. The streak completely eclipsed the final .400 season. Joe’s team won, powered by Joe. The Yanks went 101-53 and Boston finished 17 games back at 84-70. They were never really in the race. MVP usually goes to the player that helped his team make the Post Season, not the also rans. '47 I cannot defend as much. **RickJay** , as usual good sound points. However, I suspect Joe D might have been worth 20 defensive runs compared to Ted Williams. The length of time Williams played at a high level might be the argument I cannot beat. Joe D. had a short career of only 13 years. He was injury plagued and slow to recover from his WWII time. I might have to concede the point to Williams. Now bring Mays into the argument instead. He also was worth many runs as a fielder over Ted Williams. How do they stack up in your book? Never mind, I see you put Mays 3rd and Williams 5th. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/34 "2008-06-05T03:24:47Z")
Ty Cobb. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/35 "2008-06-05T03:27:23Z")
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine] Here ya go. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe\_Schlabotnik#Joe\_Shlabotnik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Schlabotnik#Joe_Shlabotnik) [/QUOTE] Of course… the legendary Schlabotnik. Should have copy-pasted that last name into my wiki search rather than trying it from memory. But seriously… why the discussion of DiMaggio and Mays for CF? If you want to talk about an all around player, Mays was known as both a hitting force and a defensive wunderkind, but he never covered second base and chased down fly balls deep. DiMaggio might have been a better power hitter than Speaker (and Mays), but his BA was twenty points shy of Speaker’s! Speaker still holds the doubles record after eighty years, and for the exception of Cobb and Wagner, would be universally regarded as the best player of the dead ball era. ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/36 "2008-06-05T04:37:17Z")
While my heart says Ted Williams… For style points, and general puckish behavior, I have to vote for Gaylord Perry. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/37 "2008-06-05T05:33:43Z")
Mays DiMaggio Ruth Bonds I’ve included Bonds because cheating in baseball is as much of a tradition as guys like Gaylord Perry and Don Drysdale (assault with a deadly weapon) have made it. If you don’t get caught and suspended, it counts. Now I don’t know much about Bonds fielding, but his prime hitting years numbers require consideration. As for Ruth, great pitcher, I can’t say about his other defense. Did more for the game than anyone except maybe Jackie Robinson. Mays and DiMaggio? Both stunning hitters and the best two fielders ever. DiMaggio’s hitting streak? Jaw dropping, but remember, once it was going, they pitched to him. The fact that he didn’t have a stroke under the pressure was enormous. Nowadays, if it had been Bonds, they would have walked him. I’ll put Mays first because post integration it was a lot better game with more competition. Pre-integration pre-Ruth era, I think you have to consider Wagner, Joe Jackson and Ty Cobb, with Cobb the obvious winner. He would have only hit 300 against 1960s hitters, but keep in mind he was in his 70s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/38 "2008-06-05T05:40:07Z")
1960s pitchers? ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/39 "2008-06-05T06:13:25Z")
When we see some of the statistics that players like Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Gehrig and Ruth put up, and to some degree Josh Gibson and other Negro leaguers, I’m left to wonder how well those batting numbers compare when you consider the way that teams used pitchers back then. Specialization was not even a glimmer in anyone’s eye and pitchers were routinely over worked to the point that you have to wonder what type of junk they were throwing up there. In a way I’m practically imagining the below average pitchers of the day left out there basically tossing BP after their arm turned to jelly. Considering the way teams use their bull pens these days and the fact that the double header is becoming extinct, not to mention Tommy John surgery and modern medicine to keep guys throwing, it’s tough to argue that Bonds and A-Rod aren’t seeing substantially better pitching than the greats of the 20s and before. How many pitchers from the 20s were still toiling on the mound with a torn labrum and a blown ulnar collateral ligament? How much talent was there with no blacks, Asians or Latinos? Ruth was obviously way better than his peers, but the fact that Bonds and A-Rod are putting up numbers that approach his might be an order of magnitude more impressive. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811/40 "2008-06-05T13:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] When we see some of the statistics that players like Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Gehrig and Ruth put up, and to some degree Josh Gibson and other Negro leaguers, I’m left to wonder how well those batting numbers compare when you consider the way that teams used pitchers back then. Specialization was not even a glimmer in anyone’s eye and pitchers were routinely over worked to the point that you have to wonder what type of junk they were throwing up there. In a way I’m practically imagining the below average pitchers of the day left out there basically tossing BP after their arm turned to jelly. Considering the way teams use their bull pens these days and the fact that the double header is becoming extinct, not to mention Tommy John surgery and modern medicine to keep guys throwing, it’s tough to argue that Bonds and A-Rod aren’t seeing substantially better pitching than the greats of the 20s and before. How many pitchers from the 20s were still toiling on the mound with a torn labrum and a blown ulnar collateral ligament? How much talent was there with no blacks, Asians or Latinos? Ruth was obviously way better than his peers, but the fact that Bonds and A-Rod are putting up numbers that approach his might be an order of magnitude more impressive. [/QUOTE] Well the African-American only make up a small percentage of the players in this generation, that was more the 50s-70s. The Latinos are a hugh additional component that bring up the talent level these day and the asians are still a very small impact. In the days of Ruth & Cobbs, it was white only, but Baseball was the only paying gig and almost all the best white athletes went into baseball. By the 50s, baseball started losing great athletes to Football and Basketball. This somewhat counters the addtion of the Black and then Hispanic players. Now, no matter which way you slice it, Ruth faces only 7 other teams. That was effectively only 30 starters or so. So while there might be more great pitchers today, there were far less scrubs then. Finally, baseball players played back then without the year round conditioning, without the steroids and HGH of course and in most cases had off-season jobs to pay the bills. All that said I think we can safely compare Ruth to A-Rod or Bonds and remember what a great pitcher he was and know that he was the “Greatest Baseball Player” of all time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-baseball-player/451811.md?page=3)