[QUOTE=Snarky_Kong]
No, it’s about the whole thing. That’s how I read it. I’m just commenting that one player’s opinion isn’t a definitive bit of evidence on the relative quality of two players.
[/QUOTE]
That’s fair, but if he is praising himself in the same statement and I tend to value his opinion. His book on hitting was considered a mainstay for years. He lived baseball, talk baseball and taught baseball, I think he was making a frank assessment and not just saying a nice thing.
If Babe Ruth had never played a single game in the outfield, he would be on THE short list of the Greatest Pitchers Ever. Now, add in the fact that he hit 714 home runs, forever changed the way the game of baseball is perceived by the public, and inspired 76 years of excellent angsty baseball writing from massachusetts, and I just can’t see what all the fuss is about.
Ruth
Bonds (although by the time he’s done, ARod will rank here).
Cobb
Mays
T. Williams
Ruth.
Then I think there is a strong, strong case to be made for the only guy to outdistance him in that inaugural Hall of Fame vote - Ty Cobb. I think there is a strong enough case that I would put Cobb no.2
*
Cobb is widely credited with setting 90 Major League Baseball records during his career.[5][6][7][8] He still holds several records as of 2007, including the highest career batting average (.367) and most career batting titles with 12 (or 11, depending on source).[9] He retained many other records for almost a half century or more, including most career hits until 1985 (4,191 or 4,189, depending on source),[10][11][unreliable source?] most career runs (2,245 or 2,246 depending on source) until 2001,[12] most career games played (3,035) and at bats (11,429 or 11,434 depending on source) until 1974,[13][14] and the modern record for most career stolen bases (892) until 1977.[1* link
I’d say Ruth first (that was fun and easy)
Barry Bonds second (that was unpleasant, but necessary).
Bonds? I thought we were talking baseball players, not cheating scum.
At pitcher, it’s gotta be Walter Johnson. Beyond the sheer volume and impressiveness of his stats (both rate and counting) is the fact that he tended to do so well on horrible team.
Teams record in games where he got the decision:
417-279 .599
Teams record when he didn’t get the decision
1142-1330 .462
If you neutralize his stats here, it gets really mind boggling.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
As I said Williams admitted DiMaggio was the best ball player. Somewhere there is a quote where Ted actually said that he (Ted) was the best hitter of their generation but DiMaggio was the best player.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
From a 1942 quote by DiMaggio
From Satchel Paige, in 1972
Just thought you might enjoy what some old timers said.
[QUOTE=samclem]
From a 1942 quote by DiMaggio
From Satchel Paige, in 1972
Just thought you might enjoy what some old timers said.
[/QUOTE]
By all accounts Gibson was truly special. The lack of stats, the variable ballparks and the damn rules that kept him from playing in the majors make it hard to judge. Buck O’Neil thought he was the best also. He might deserve the two hole on my list. I still put Babe first.
[QUOTE=silenus]
Bonds? I thought we were talking baseball players, not cheating scum.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah..I am surprised by the Bonds votes
Yes, I’m speaking best player, not just hitter, and your points are valid. But defense is much harder to verify, statistically (see Derek Jeter.) And as much as I love Joe D., he robbed Williams twice for MVP ('41 and '47.)
There is no such thing as best ever, Dead ball era was like ly Cobb. Best lifetime ave ever ,most stolen bases. etc.
When Ruth hit 59 ,he hit more homers than every other team. No one was close.
Next era was Williams as best pure hitter. Mays was a better all round player. He was better defensively and stolen bases. too,
best of the steroid era was Bonds.
Baseball has a long history and changes in the game make it hard to relate eras.
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Fine is this solely about hitting? Or about all aspects of play?
How much more valuable is a great Center Fielder than an average at best corner Outfielder?
This is where the question lies for me.
[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s a fair question. DiMaggio was a legitimately great center fielder.
However, the difference between them in hitting skill was not a small one, it was quite extreme. Williams’s career on base percentage was eighty-four points higher; his slugging percentage was 55 points higher. They were not comparable hitters, to my eyes. Williams was WAY better. Even if you account for the park difference, Williams was dramatically superior.
I typed a lot of boring shit here figuring the offensive difference, then deleted it; the long and short of it is that for every full 154-game season Williams was adding at least 20 more runs to his team than DiMaggio was with the bat, and that’s a lot. Now, you could argue that DiMaggio’s glove was worth more than 20 runs over Williams. I think that’s stretching it, but it’s possible. But even if it’s true. it’s worth bearing in mind that Williams played 500 games more than DiMaggio. Pound for pound I think they’re awfully close, but when you consider Williams’s career was really a lot longer - almost 30% longer - you have to think that counts for something, right? And that’s even though he lost MORE time to military service.
Just my opinion, of course. DiMaggio was certainly a more complete and classic ballplayer; Williams was one dimensional. DiMaggio’s game would have been much more fun to watch and admire. But sometimes you have to admit brute force can trump elegance.
[QUOTE=Southern Yankee]
Yes, I’m speaking best player, not just hitter, and your points are valid. But defense is much harder to verify, statistically (see Derek Jeter.) And as much as I love Joe D., he robbed Williams twice for MVP ('41 and '47.)
[/QUOTE]
I’ll never agree on '41. The streak completely eclipsed the final .400 season. Joe’s team won, powered by Joe. The Yanks went 101-53 and Boston finished 17 games back at 84-70. They were never really in the race. MVP usually goes to the player that helped his team make the Post Season, not the also rans.
'47 I cannot defend as much.
RickJay, as usual good sound points. However, I suspect Joe D might have been worth 20 defensive runs compared to Ted Williams. The length of time Williams played at a high level might be the argument I cannot beat. Joe D. had a short career of only 13 years. He was injury plagued and slow to recover from his WWII time. I might have to concede the point to Williams.
Now bring Mays into the argument instead. He also was worth many runs as a fielder over Ted Williams. How do they stack up in your book? Never mind, I see you put Mays 3rd and Williams 5th. :smack:
Ty Cobb.
[QUOTE=MadTheSwine]
Here ya go.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Schlabotnik#Joe_Shlabotnik
[/QUOTE]
Of course… the legendary Schlabotnik. Should have copy-pasted that last name into my wiki search rather than trying it from memory.
But seriously… why the discussion of DiMaggio and Mays for CF?
If you want to talk about an all around player, Mays was known as both a hitting force and a defensive wunderkind, but he never covered second base and chased down fly balls deep. DiMaggio might have been a better power hitter than Speaker (and Mays), but his BA was twenty points shy of Speaker’s! Speaker still holds the doubles record after eighty years, and for the exception of Cobb and Wagner, would be universally regarded as the best player of the dead ball era.
While my heart says Ted Williams…
For style points, and general puckish behavior, I have to vote for Gaylord Perry.
Mays
DiMaggio
Ruth
Bonds
I’ve included Bonds because cheating in baseball is as much of a tradition as guys like Gaylord Perry and Don Drysdale (assault with a deadly weapon) have made it. If you don’t get caught and suspended, it counts. Now I don’t know much about Bonds fielding, but his prime hitting years numbers require consideration.
As for Ruth, great pitcher, I can’t say about his other defense. Did more for the game than anyone except maybe Jackie Robinson.
Mays and DiMaggio? Both stunning hitters and the best two fielders ever. DiMaggio’s hitting streak? Jaw dropping, but remember, once it was going, they pitched to him. The fact that he didn’t have a stroke under the pressure was enormous. Nowadays, if it had been Bonds, they would have walked him. I’ll put Mays first because post integration it was a lot better game with more competition.
Pre-integration pre-Ruth era, I think you have to consider Wagner, Joe Jackson and Ty Cobb, with Cobb the obvious winner. He would have only hit 300 against 1960s hitters, but keep in mind he was in his 70s.
1960s pitchers?
When we see some of the statistics that players like Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Gehrig and Ruth put up, and to some degree Josh Gibson and other Negro leaguers, I’m left to wonder how well those batting numbers compare when you consider the way that teams used pitchers back then. Specialization was not even a glimmer in anyone’s eye and pitchers were routinely over worked to the point that you have to wonder what type of junk they were throwing up there. In a way I’m practically imagining the below average pitchers of the day left out there basically tossing BP after their arm turned to jelly.
Considering the way teams use their bull pens these days and the fact that the double header is becoming extinct, not to mention Tommy John surgery and modern medicine to keep guys throwing, it’s tough to argue that Bonds and A-Rod aren’t seeing substantially better pitching than the greats of the 20s and before. How many pitchers from the 20s were still toiling on the mound with a torn labrum and a blown ulnar collateral ligament? How much talent was there with no blacks, Asians or Latinos?
Ruth was obviously way better than his peers, but the fact that Bonds and A-Rod are putting up numbers that approach his might be an order of magnitude more impressive.
[QUOTE=Omniscient]
When we see some of the statistics that players like Wagner, Cobb, Speaker, Gehrig and Ruth put up, and to some degree Josh Gibson and other Negro leaguers, I’m left to wonder how well those batting numbers compare when you consider the way that teams used pitchers back then. Specialization was not even a glimmer in anyone’s eye and pitchers were routinely over worked to the point that you have to wonder what type of junk they were throwing up there. In a way I’m practically imagining the below average pitchers of the day left out there basically tossing BP after their arm turned to jelly.
Considering the way teams use their bull pens these days and the fact that the double header is becoming extinct, not to mention Tommy John surgery and modern medicine to keep guys throwing, it’s tough to argue that Bonds and A-Rod aren’t seeing substantially better pitching than the greats of the 20s and before. How many pitchers from the 20s were still toiling on the mound with a torn labrum and a blown ulnar collateral ligament? How much talent was there with no blacks, Asians or Latinos?
Ruth was obviously way better than his peers, but the fact that Bonds and A-Rod are putting up numbers that approach his might be an order of magnitude more impressive.
[/QUOTE]
Well the African-American only make up a small percentage of the players in this generation, that was more the 50s-70s. The Latinos are a hugh additional component that bring up the talent level these day and the asians are still a very small impact.
In the days of Ruth & Cobbs, it was white only, but Baseball was the only paying gig and almost all the best white athletes went into baseball. By the 50s, baseball started losing great athletes to Football and Basketball. This somewhat counters the addtion of the Black and then Hispanic players.
Now, no matter which way you slice it, Ruth faces only 7 other teams. That was effectively only 30 starters or so. So while there might be more great pitchers today, there were far less scrubs then.
Finally, baseball players played back then without the year round conditioning, without the steroids and HGH of course and in most cases had off-season jobs to pay the bills.
All that said I think we can safely compare Ruth to A-Rod or Bonds and remember what a great pitcher he was and know that he was the “Greatest Baseball Player” of all time.