# The greatest danger to America today is Anti-liberalism. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 9, 2017, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828 "2017-07-09T13:41:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/21 "2017-07-09T21:31:21Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I think I know what you mean but I am not quite sure. Are you just giving a new name to the Alt-Right (which is also a fairly new term in the popular press)? It is true that traditional conservatives seem to be a little light on the ground right now but the reactionary right and religious conservatives are speaking loudly. No. The so-called Alt-right no doubt has people in it who are also anti-liberals. What I am specifically referring to, are people who decide courses of action, and who to vote for, and what to rant about, based on whether or not they think liberals like it or not. These are the people, for example, who are supporting Putin and other foreign leaders, in spite of their obvious hostile intentions towards the US, simply because they think that liberals DISLIKE Putin. These are the people who oppose doing anything at all about climate change, not because it isn’t already affecting the entire world, they oppose doing anything about it because people who they think are liberals, brought it up first. They don’t oppose lying government officials, they APPLAUD liars who aren’t liberals (or who they think aren’t liberals). In short, the people I am concerned about here, are the ones who pretend to have principles, but actually do not. Or rather, they only have one principle: if a liberal wants it, they will oppose it, even if it’s desperately needed to do something such as, oh, for example, retain the United States once unrivaled credit rating. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/22 "2017-07-09T21:33:53Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > If I understand what you are saying, I disagree with you. I am not referring to “Extremist polarization and rigid control of the parties.” If you think I am, then you are wrong. No, I didn’t say that you said this. I said it! I think that extreme polarization is a greater danger than anti-Liberalism, and thus I think you are wrong that anti-Liberalism is the “greatest danger.” I think there are several other worse dangers, and I gave one example. > [@](#): > > I also would disagree with the statement that wealth and income inequality is inherently bad or dangerous. What IS dangerous, is WHY the inequality income and wealth has become as extreme as it has. It has NOT occurred because the wealthier people produced a great deal more wealth than the middle and lower classes, it has occurred because the economy was purposely distorted in order to funnel more money into their pockets, and to take it away from everyone else. Hm… I partly agree, partly don’t. I do agree that the reasons for this inequality are dismaying, but I also believe that the existing magnitude of the inequality is, in itself, hazardous to our republic. It puts far too much political power into the hands of the rich…as **E-DUB** quoted. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/23 "2017-07-09T21:34:27Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > The challenge I see is that the parameters of the OP are ill-defined. I’m staunchly anti-Naziism. Is that also illogical? Is it destructive? Potentially, yes. If you are so intently anti-nazi that you oppose anything and everything that any nazi ever did or said, without stopping to figure out if it were independently a good idea, then your anti-naziism would be a problem. The nazi’s, for example, believed in defending their homeland from foreign invasion or intervention. If you are so anti-nazi that you discard defense of your homeland, then you are the kind of Anti-ist I am referring to. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/24 "2017-07-09T21:35:28Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Anti-liberalism first of all, needs to be recognized for what it is, and what it is not. > > What it is not, is conservatism. Some of the most radical and disruptive ideas of our age, are being spewed by the Anti-liberals. And too many real conservatives are deluding themselves into supporting those ideas and actions, simply because they have gotten into the habit of supporting anything that opposes their list of “enemies.” > > The popularity of the entirely idiotic phrase “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” is a classic example of how far wrong people are these days in their reasoning processes. > > Only Anti-liberalism as a self-blinding affectation, could have brought so many people to refuse to recognize that a powerful nation controlled by the ex-head of the Communist KGB, should be praised over our own country and our own leaders. > > Opposition to science, because it supports the FACT that our climate IS changing, and that we ARE negatively affecting it via pollution, is not at all a Conservative value. > > Setting aside the Constitution of the United States as an inconvenience, because it occasionally gets in the way of attacking people we don’t like, is not a Conservative value, but Anti-liberals think it’s brilliant and crafty. > > Opposing liberals BECAUSE THEY ARE LIBERALS is not a true Conservative value. By that logic, isn’t being anti-anti-liberal a problem of the “great danger” variety? (Which _would_ mean we should be anti-anti-anti-liberal, except…) ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/25 "2017-07-09T21:37:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That’s great that you are against Nazis, but is that really anti-Naziism? I have not pursued the Nazi party all that extensively, but it seems that they probably had one or two good ideas that should not be rejected out of hand, simply because the ideas were used by them. > > Anti-Naziism, in the way that the OP is defining anti-liberalism, is an outright rejection of anything and everything they stood for, rather than being against the things that they stood for that you actually disagree with. > > That’s the complaint I see in the OP, even if I don’t know that it was defined well therein. The “anti-liberals” are against anything the liberals are for, not on the merit of the idea itself, but because it is desired by the liberals, and the conservative party seems to be increasingly reactionary towards liberal ideas, because they are liberal ideas, not because the ideas themselves are flawed. This is EXACTLY correct. Anti-ism is NOT a laudable pursuit, no matter how vile you think what you oppose is, and no matter how wonderful whatever you think you are being an Anti-ist in defense of, is. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/26 "2017-07-09T21:39:56Z")
Again. The reason I have chosen to address ANTI-LIBERALISM in particular here, isn’t because I think that only anti-liberalism is a problem. It is because RIGHT NOW, the United States is in vastly more danger from the Anti-liberals, than it is from any of the other Anti-groups or movements. I think we were in more danger from the Anti-conservatives, back in the 1970’s, but those days are long over. ---
**Author:** ![Settimo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@Settimo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Settimo)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/27 "2017-07-09T21:42:01Z")
Two points [ul] [li]Liberal has two quite different meanings–one is liberal democracy, which really underpins a lot of the West (cherising eg individual liberties) and illiberalism in this sense is pretty troglodytic–so in that sense anti-liberalism is bad, for both American (party) liberals, and conservatives alike.[/li][li]In the American-political-party-liberal sense, I can recall a recent NYT article on how elements in America’s political right/conservatives have turned to bashing party liberals as a kind of sport, a safe bet when they might not have too much in the way of concretized/practical agenda at this time to advance (snarled for example by the complexity around the healthcare debate)–one could make the argument that this is also bad, in principle, irrespective of political leanings.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/28 "2017-07-09T21:42:41Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Nope. You didn’t “give a concrete example.” Naming a specific individual isn’t giving a concrete example? Sorry, but you can’t get more concrete than that. > [@](#): > > You made an entirely unsupported accusation, and now you are trying to pretend that you didn’t, by ignoring the fact that you added NOTHING to your accusation that would have made it INTO a “concrete example.” I made no accusations. > [@](#): > > And you still haven’t. Just more insults and accusations. I haven’t said anything that pretty much everyone else posting here has said. When you get a bunch of people saying they don’t understand your writing, don’t blame the readers. Lashing out at people because they don’t understand what’s going on in your mind is not an effective debate technique, btw. So, just to be clear: Is Trump not an example of the people you are talking about? He seems to fit the bill pretty well to me. But then, as noted, your OP is less than clear. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/29 "2017-07-09T21:44:55Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This is very true, but, to follow on the OP, intellectualism is the domain of the liberals, and therefore, anti-liberal has anti-intellectual as part of it. Apparently so is fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/30 "2017-07-09T22:39:25Z")
At its heart being a liberal means being open minded and what we are seeing now, particularly in college campuses, is there is no such thing as free speech or being open minded. Also its a rare democrat or liberal who will criticize welfare fraud or fraud in government programs. So millions thats supposed to go to the needy gets scammed but the supporters of those programs wont say a word about it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/31 "2017-07-09T23:46:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, just to be clear: Is Trump not an example of the people you are talking about? He seems to fit the bill pretty well to me. But then, as noted, your OP is less than clear. What seems clear to me is that the actual topic of this thread hits a little too close to home, so you are repeatedly trying to turn this into “Trump” thread, where you already have well-used arguments all ready to go. Edited to add: If you are wondering if a thread is about Trump, look for his name in the title of the thread and/or the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/32 "2017-07-09T23:50:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > At its heart being a liberal means being open minded and what we are seeing now, particularly in college campuses, is there is no such thing as free speech or being open minded. > > Also its a rare democrat or liberal who will criticize welfare fraud or fraud in government programs. So millions thats supposed to go to the needy gets scammed but the supporters of those programs wont say a word about it. That’s nice…but can you tie that into anything said in the OP, or was that just a generic “hit back”? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/33 "2017-07-09T23:52:35Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > . . . Also its a rare democrat or liberal who will criticize welfare fraud or fraud in government programs. . . . Hogwash! No Democrat has any love whatever for welfare fraud or any other kind of fraud. That wastes money, and takes money away from the truly needy. We hate fraud exactly as much as Republicans do, and we want it eliminated whenever possible. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/34 "2017-07-10T00:12:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > At its heart being a liberal means being open minded and what we are seeing now, particularly in college campuses, is there is no such thing as free speech or being open minded. > > Also its a rare democrat or liberal who will criticize welfare fraud or fraud in government programs. So millions thats supposed to go to the needy gets scammed but the supporters of those programs wont say a word about it. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Hogwash! No Democrat has any love whatever for welfare fraud or any other kind of fraud. That wastes money, and takes money away from the truly needy. We hate fraud exactly as much as Republicans do, and we want it eliminated whenever possible. Agreed. Your first sentence doesn’t even make sense, btw, other than a very poor attempt to link college kids to Democrats and Liberals, in general. The second paragraph is an assertion based on… what, exactly? I’d ask you for a cite, but it would impossible for you to find one. I think we have to go with gratuitous swipe. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/35 "2017-07-10T04:44:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This is very true, but, to follow on the OP, intellectualism is the domain of the liberals, and therefore, anti-liberal has anti-intellectual as part of it. I dunno, stupid American liberals are certainly not in short supply lately. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/36 "2017-07-10T09:47:47Z")
Here’s an article from the NYT that I think speaks to what the OP is talking about: > **[Hated by the Right. Mocked by the Left. Who Wants to Be ‘Liberal’ Anymore?...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/magazine/hated-by-the-right-mocked-by-the-left-who-wants-to-be-liberal-anymore.html)** > > After decades as a target of Republican abuse, liberalism is back in the middle of American politics, criticized on both sides and short on defenders. The gist is that “Liberal” has become a politically meaningless and derisive term that describes a particular urban knee-jerk quick-to-offend reactionary hypocritical latte sipping cultural hipster. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/37 "2017-07-10T10:13:55Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Here’s an article from the NYT that I think speaks to what the OP is talking about: > [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/magazine/hated-by-the-right-mocked-by-the-left-who-wants-to-be-liberal-anymore.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/05/magazine/hated-by-the-right-mocked-by-the-left-who-wants-to-be-liberal-anymore.html) > The gist is that “Liberal” has become a **politically meaningless and derisive term** that describes a particular **urban knee-jerk quick-to-offend reactionary hypocritical latte sipping cultural hipster**. Bolding mine. Please tell me that was intentional. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/38 "2017-07-10T12:02:11Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Opposing liberals BECAUSE THEY ARE LIBERALS is not a true Conservative value. That right there is called ‘negative partisanship’, and [it is a thing](https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2017/6/2/15730524/negative-partisanship-toxic-polarization). Analyzing right-wing political positions feels like making logical sense of The Red Queen until you realize it boils down to this: [ul] [li]create a strawman of what a “liberal” is.[/li][li]wait for people to take the bait and become the strawman[/li][li]poke them, laugh at their reaction, congratulate yourself for being too shrewd to give a shit[/li][/ul] To be fair, there is an identitarian strain of liberalism that would do well to get over itself. But when poking these people in the eye and calling them snowflakes is your whole political strategy, well, that’s how we get dodgy shit like the [del]heath[/del] elite tax care bill, the border wall, and Trump’s infamous “impenetrable cyber security force” WTF ever that is. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/39 "2017-07-10T12:29:43Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Also its a rare democrat or liberal who will criticize welfare fraud or fraud in government programs. So millions thats supposed to go to the needy gets scammed but the supporters of those programs wont say a word about it. How much welfare fraud is there? You can’t say. How do you fix welfare fraud, and would that fix help more people than it hurts? You haven’t thought that through. What’s your solution? You don’t have one. Why would anyone be willing to talk about a problem that you haven’t even thought through yourself? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828/40 "2017-07-10T12:47:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your first sentence doesn’t even make sense, btw, other than a very poor attempt to link college kids to Democrats and Liberals, in general. Ironically, a lot of these extremist college kids look down on both other groups as being wishy-washy, and don’t want to be associated with what they see as the further-to-the-center “liberals”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-danger-to-america-today-is-anti-liberalism/790828.md?page=3)