# The greatest musical in the world is... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305 "2009-04-16T17:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/41 "2009-04-16T23:25:32Z")
The greatest musical in the world is… _Fiddler on the Roof_, end of story. This thread can now be closed. Though I understand those who say _Les Mis_- it’s definitely a worthy opponent for the title. Though I’m surprised at no love for _Ragtime_; while I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the stage versions I’ve seen the OBCR with Audra McDonald and Brian Stokes Mitchell and Marin Mazzie… oy. Ferklempt. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/42 "2009-04-16T23:26:57Z")
Okay. Y’all have to explain something, please. Why all the love for _West Side Story_? I’ve only seen the movie and, well… let’s say I didn’t like it. Cacaphonous, cliched (warmed over Romeo and Juliet), and downright eye-rollingly silly (signing _street gangs_? Are you freakin’ kidding me?), I found very little appealing about it - just the ending credits, informing me that my torment was, mercifully, over. … Or maybe I’ve been touched by the Eye of Sauron. Who knows? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/43 "2009-04-16T23:35:55Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Why all the love for _West Side Story_? > > I’ve only seen the movie and, well… let’s say I didn’t like it. Cacaphonous, cliched (warmed over Romeo and Juliet), and downright eye-rollingly silly (signing _street gangs_? Are you freakin’ kidding me?), I found very little appealing about it - just the ending credits, informing me that my torment was, mercifully, over. I never liked it either (except for a couple of the songs). And Maria- what a flighty silly bitch! YOU JUST MET THE BOY, HE KILLED YOUR BROTHER, AND YOU’RE HELPING HIM GET AWAY?!?!?!?! Though not to be douche, because I make plenty of typos myself, but > [@](#): > > (signing _street gangs_? makes me hate myself for laughing at the notion of a deaf Polish gang and a deaf Hispanic gang going to rumble, only to be hit by a streetcar while doing kickturns in the street. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/44 "2009-04-16T23:39:54Z")
First _Sweeney Todd_ is tuneless, now _West Side Story_ is cacaphonous? With _One Hand, One Heart_, and _Maria_, and _Tonight_, _I Feel Pretty_, _America_, and one of the most gorgeous songs ever written, _Somewhere_? De gustibus and all, but _dayum._ ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/45 "2009-04-17T02:02:59Z")
Sweeney **Sweeney Sweeney Sweeney SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNEY!** ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/46 "2009-04-17T02:21:22Z")
The greatest musical for theater people may be (fill in the blank). But the greatest musical for **Beware of Doug** will always be the\* first \*fully-realized modern musical: _Show Boat._ ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/47 "2009-04-17T02:40:19Z")
Another vote for **Company**. I can’t imagine those songs not being memorable. “Where ya goin’?” “Barcelona.” “Oh.” and “Here’s to the ladies who lunch” and “And another hundred people just got off of the train…” and “Thank you very much but I’m not getting married today” and “You know, no one, wants you to be happy more than I do…” As for something more contemporary, if we’re gonna get right down to it, it’s practically a religion unto itself and needs a mention: **Rent**. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/48 "2009-04-17T02:41:06Z")
> [@choie](#): > > Uh, yeah, I was beginning to worry about the SDMB when no one mentioned **Sweeney Todd** until half the thread went by. I won’t even dignify the idea that the music is tuneless. _Johanna_, tuneless? _My Friends_, _Ballad of Sweeney Todd_, _Green Finch and Linnet Bird_, freakin’ _ **NOT WHILE I’M AROUND** _, tuneless? Exactly. You got it: it’s just tuneless chanting. Sondheim can never be bothered to write a melody; they get in the way of his lyrics (which, though technically well done, are pretty shallow and emotionally unsophisticated – there’s rarely any depth to them as the people recite exactly what’s in them). No one ever plays Sondheim’s melodies. Once you strip the songs of their lyrics, there’s nothing left. I agree, BTW, that West Side Story can be called cacophonous. But that’s a deliberate choice by Bernstein; he used one particular chord combination (I forget the technical name) in each song in order to get that effect. As a great composer, he was able to make it work. Sondheim is not a great composer. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/49 "2009-04-17T03:05:04Z")
LOL, I can’t even begin to say how much I disagree. No one ever plays Sondheim melodies? What does that even mean? The sheer beauty of “Not While I’m Around” and “Johanna” (both Antony’s and Sweeney’s very different versions) work even without lyrics. As a singer I adored performing these songs, because they’re just so freaking gorgeous. > [@](#): > > I agree, BTW, that West Side Story can be called cacophonous. But that’s a deliberate choice by Bernstein; he used one particular chord combination (I forget the technical name) in each song in order to get that effect. As a great composer, he was able to make it work. Sondheim is not a great composer. What you’re looking for in WSS is perhaps “dissonance.” The tritone Bernstein used in “Maria” and “Somewhere” added tension, not mere noise or ugliness. And Sondheim uses dissonance marvelously to great effect in “The Ballad of Sweeney Todd” and “City on Fire” and Sweeney’s version of “Johanna.” But there’s no point in continuing. You don’t consider Sondheim great; I do. I don’t like all of Sondheim (heck, I don’t like all of Bernstein either), but for me, _Sweeney_ is his perfect storm: a masterpiece crafted with astonishing intelligence and passion. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/50 "2009-04-17T03:24:41Z")
“Dissonant” is the better word. Thanks, **Choie**. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/51 "2009-04-17T03:35:15Z")
Guys and Dolls is probably my sentimental favorite, but I have to give the top spot to Les Miz. Also love Evita, A Chorus Line, and The Music Man. Do not get the love for West Side Story. But then, I never cared much for Romeo and Juliet, either. Foolish kids. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/52 "2009-04-17T05:20:38Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Exactly. You got it: it’s just tuneless chanting. Sondheim can never be bothered to write a melody; they get in the way of his lyrics (which, though technically well done, are pretty shallow and emotionally unsophisticated – there’s rarely any depth to them as the people recite exactly what’s in them). > > No one ever plays Sondheim’s melodies. Once you strip the songs of their lyrics, there’s nothing left. > > I agree, BTW, that West Side Story can be called cacophonous. But that’s a deliberate choice by Bernstein; he used one particular chord combination (I forget the technical name) in each song in order to get that effect. As a great composer, he was able to make it work. Sondheim is not a great composer. Wow. I’ve been staying out of this thread, but this challenge cannot go unanswered!!! Shallow and emotionally unsophisticated lyrics!?!?!? Have you seen a good production of _Into The Woods_ (my favorite Sondheim show, and in the running for my favorite musical ever)? That show is perhaps the greatest, most complicated “popular” essay on human emotion and motivation that has ever been written. I will admit that he is more intellectual than emotional, but only in the sense that very few if any of his songs have clear emotional goals; more often than not, they’re meant to be conflicted. Which is his shtick. But he’s great at it. Most writers write characters who are in conflict with each other. Sondheim writes characters who are in conflict with themselves. And, as far as melodies go, _Giants In The Sky_ has a very catchy chorus, and _Moments In The Woods_, _No More_, _No One Is Alone_, and quite a few others have very catchy melodies. I will admit that it is very easy to put on a bad production of _Into The Woods_. If the director doesn’t get it, or focuses just a little off of the point, it can become a long and ponderous show. But, a good production of it can be sublime (minus the beginning of act two, which seems to be hopelessly dull and full of exposition). For the record, the DVD version of the show is not a particularly great rendition, IMHO. And, for other shows that rank in my “Greatest Show Ever” list, in no particular order: **1st Tier:** Into The Woods Fiddler on the Roof My Fair Lady Man of La Mancha Little Shop of Horrors **2nd Tier:** Bat Boy: The Musical The Music Man Secret Garden Sweeney Todd Jesus Christ Superstar The King and I Chicago I just can’t get behind _West Side Story_. I think it’s great, and vitally important and significant in the history of musical theater, and the music is mostly wonderful. But, the story, the book and the pacing are very dated. It doesn’t hold up script wise after all these years, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/53 "2009-04-17T05:31:27Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > **1st Tier:** > > Into The Woods > Fiddler on the Roof > My Fair Lady > Man of La Mancha > Little Shop of Horrors Oh, I ADORE Little Shop! One of my all time faves. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/54 "2009-04-17T09:15:38Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Sorry. But we’ll give it an Honorable Mention as “Greatest Musical Episode of a TV show.” While the story was very good, and came at an ideal place in a compelling part of the series, I wasn’t too fond of the actual music. Best TV musical episode goes to Once More With Feeling. Willow was fine as she refused to sing much, and had the best line of the episode. Xander was surprisingly fine for an obvious non singer. Tara and Giles were wonderful but that’s not surprising. Spike was pretty good, although he too is in a band of sorts, though I like one of their songs I found them to be terribly good in concert. Buffy was fine except for the Give me Something song, but I’ll let her off since the one obnoxious was intentional. First runner up goes to Dr Horrible, of course. They might even be tied. They aren’t often entire episodes, but I quite enjoy the various songs on animated shows like Family Guy, Simpsons, Futurama, and South Park - though they are usually good just for the amusement factor and not the musical aspect (I did enjoy She-boopie from Family Guy for some reason). I’ve also enjoyed some of the SNL spoofs like Dick in a Box and Lazy Sunday. The South Park movie however, I enjoyed musically as well. The whole thing was quite enjoyable and ear catching. Worst TV musical episode goes to 7th Heaven. Which says a lot coming from me because I have extraordinary powers to compel myself to enjoy that sort of thing. I haven’t seen Viva La Whatever or Cop Rocks and I don’t remember Fame very well. What other TV musical episodes were there? [checks…] I don’t remember seeing any of the others listed at wiki other than the various Simpsons ones and the other Xena one which also didn’t impress me. I missed the Scrubs episode although I caught “Guy Love” on youtube and that was amusing though not musically pleasing. I’ve never seen or heard of Passion but I’ll check it out based on your recommendation. As a kid I remember enjoying Starlight Express, Cats, and the stage versions of Disney’s Peter Pan and Snow White. I tortured my parents endlessly playing the SW record over and over again, singing and playing all the parts. 😃 I liked the earlier Disney musical films a lot - Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Lion King, but not the later ones - Tarzan, The Emperor’s New Groove, etc. I imagine I would like the stage version of Lion King a lot based on the concept and music, but I haven’t seen it. As an adult I enjoyed Les Mis. I was not fond of Rent, possibly partly because of the particular performance I saw, but likely also because of the overabundance of things like the answering machine songs - I really enjoyed the movie which focused more on the enjoyable songs, had more interesting staging, and better sound and performances (maybe partly due to many of the original cast returning). I was not very fond of Aida. Will Roger’s Follies was entertaining as a spectacle but not as a musical, but that’s probably as intended. I did not enjoy the hippies singing about God musical , whatever that was called. I don’t remember Cabaret all that well, but I think I really enjoyed the story but found the music to be not all that inspiring. I quite liked Little Shop, though I liked the movie better. Bat Boy the Musical surprised me with how good it was. I quite enjoyed the movies Moulin Rouge, Chicago, Grease, Mary Poppins, The Muppet Movie, The Wiz, My Fair Lady, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, Little Shop of Horrors, The Wall, The Sound of Music, Rent, and Hairspray. The spoofy pirates with lightsabers one was quite fun. I really liked the concept of Mama Mia, and the songs, and the way the cast clearly enjoyed the movie, and the idea of audience participation, but the men’s singing parts were horrible, and from the stage soundtrack it sounds like they had poor male casting there too. I haven’t seen or heard Tommy in any form. I liked Sweeney Todd musically and in conception, but the performances could have been better. I saw the stage version of Into The Woods on PBS and it wasn’t great musically but the story was very fun. Brigadoon was fun. I didn’t care for the one with the two kids whose fathers built a wall to make sure they would fall in love. I seem to recall not enjoying the Chess soundtrack, or the Carousel movie. West Side Story was fun at the time but now I find it unbearably cheesy. I found Jesus Christ Superstar to be somewhat enjoyable on stage in the original form, and much more interesting in the post apocalyptic new version but less musically pleasing. The movie was mostly decent, and I enjoyed the new song. My favorite version though is the Indigo Girls / Big Fish Ensemble version which is wonderful and probably my favorite. The best in all incarnations is of course, the Rocky Horror Picture Show. The movie and music are amazing by themselves, and the audience participation showings add just a whole other level. This may be considered blasphemous by some, but I found the theatrical stage show to be really wonderful too. Honorable mention goes to the audience participation version of Once More With Feeling. I was lucky enough to attend one of these before they were shut down for silly reasons by the evil Fox overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Hrududu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Hrududu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrududu)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/55 "2009-04-17T09:17:40Z")
I don’t understand people saying Sondheim doesn’t do melody. The songs in Sweeney are amazing. Both versions of Johanna, Not While I’m Around, My Friends, all beautiful. How could anyone listen to songs like Finishing the Hat, The Ballad of Booth, Someone is Waiting, Too Many Mornings or No One is Alone and call them “tuneless chanting” For me my favourite musical is Ragtime. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/56 "2009-04-17T12:32:38Z")
> [@Hrududu](#): > > I don’t understand people saying Sondheim doesn’t do melody. The songs in Sweeney are amazing. Both versions of Johanna, Not While I’m Around, My Friends, all beautiful. How could anyone listen to songs like Finishing the Hat, The Ballad of Booth, Someone is Waiting, Too Many Mornings or No One is Alone and call them “tuneless chanting” They say that because they heard someone _else_ say that, at some point, and something about Sondheim bugs them and they can’t figure out what, so they parrot this silly criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/57 "2009-04-17T15:29:08Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > They say that because they heard someone _else_ say that, at some point, and something about Sondheim bugs them and they can’t figure out what, so they parrot this silly criticism. One thing that bugs me about these types of threads, is the way they inevitably end up with someone saying, essentially, “I’m right and you’re stupid.” It couldn’t possibly be that different people have different tastes and different legitimately-held opinions – no, no! It must be that “they” voice an opinion because they have only “heard someone else say it,” and they “parrot” it because “they can’t figure it out,” and anyway their criticism is “silly.” IOW: They’re too stupid to know what they’re listening to, and too stupid to form their own opinons, much less hold them. It’s a really aggravating and elistist point of view, and it makes these rather fun threads suddenly a lot less fun. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/58 "2009-04-17T15:33:57Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > One thing that bugs me about these types of threads, is the way they inevitably end up with someone saying, essentially, “I’m right and you’re stupid.” It couldn’t possibly be that different people have different tastes and different legitimately-held opinions – no, no! It must be that “they” voice an opinion because they have only “heard someone else say it,” and they “parrot” it because “they can’t figure it out,” and anyway their criticism is “silly.” IOW: They’re too stupid to know what they’re listening to, and too stupid to form their own opinons much less hold them. > > It’s a really aggravating and elistist point of view, and it makes these rather fun threads suddenly a lot less fun. Fortunately, I frequently comes in to mock the very premise in an attempt to lighten the mood. For instance, I am genuinely shocked that the OP, claiming to be one of those rare black male heterosexual music lovers, forgot to include Sunday in the Park with George on his original list. Not only is SitPwG by the great and powerful Sondheim, but it starred Bernadette Peters in the original production, and she, as the Wise all know, is the loveliest of the Children of Iluvatur since Arwen. Nay, since _Luthien_. Clearly the OP was high on what I can only assume to be crack when he started the thread, and none of his opinions should be given the slightest credence. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/59 "2009-04-17T15:35:51Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > One thing that bugs me about these types of threads, is the way they inevitably end up with someone saying, essentially, “I’m right and you’re stupid.” It couldn’t possibly be that different people have different tastes and different legitimately-held opinions – no, no! It must be that “they” voice an opinion because they have only “heard someone else say it,” and they “parrot” it because “they can’t figure it out,” and anyway their criticism is “silly.” IOW: They’re too stupid to know what they’re listening to, and too stupid to form their own opinons, much less hold them. > > It’s a really aggravating and elistist point of view, and it makes these rather fun threads suddenly a lot less fun. You know what? I forgot, briefly, why I stopped posting on this board. Thanks for reminding me! ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305/60 "2009-04-17T15:48:49Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > One thing that bugs me about these types of threads, is the way they inevitably end up with someone saying, essentially, “I’m right and you’re stupid.” It couldn’t possibly be that different people have different tastes and different legitimately-held opinions – no, no! It must be that “they” voice an opinion because they have only “heard someone else say it,” and they “parrot” it because “they can’t figure it out,” and anyway their criticism is “silly.” IOW: They’re too stupid to know what they’re listening to, and too stupid to form their own opinons, much less hold them. > > It’s a really aggravating and elistist point of view, and it makes these rather fun threads suddenly a lot less fun. Actually, upon further review, my previous comment was needlessly pissy, and I apologize for it. But: I am curious why my opinion, phrased as it was, pisses you off, but the opinion to which I was responding, which was phrased just as provocatively if not more so - there is no doubt that **RealityChuck** is intended to assert superiority over those with alternate opinions - does/did not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-musical-in-the-world-is/493305.md?page=4)