The Greatest Player of All Time

rackensack: Fair enough. There’s a hell of a drop from Sandy Koufax and Greg Maddux to the likes of Mark Fidrych, though. And I’m not gonna say Don Sutton was a better pitcher than Greg Maddux if Maddux retires after this year, simply 'cause Sutton played for so much longer.

Another point: Bob Gibson (one of the pitchers on your list) finished in the top 3 of league ERA twice in his seventeen year career; Maddux has finished in the top three seven times in his (through 1999) fourteen year career. Those three extra years in Gibson’s career had him with 30 more wins and 48 more losses than Maddux before this year. At this point in the season, Maddux is 18-8, giving him a 239-134 record. Gibson’s is 251-174. I know who I’d rather have on my team, longevity or no. :slight_smile:

I still side with Gadarene…Maddux has had 13 straight seasons of winning 15 games or more…twice he has won 20, 4 times he won 19, and 3 times (counting this year) he has won 18. I realize there are pitchers who pitched longer than, but 13 years of top-level pitching is pretty good.

Either that, or take Mordecai “Three Finger” Brown…

239-130 Career Record
Lifetime ERA (2.06) 3rd lowest of all-time
Average Runners per nine innings (9.80) 4th lowest of all-time
3rd lowest single season ERA ever (1906 - 1.04)

Ty Cobb said of Brown’s breaking ball, “It was the most devastating pitch I ever faced. Christy Mathewson’s fadeaway was good, but it was nothing like that curve Three-Fingered Brown threw at you.”

Of course, that was because his hand was a mangled mess, but a damn good, and often over-looked pitcher, with one of the best baseball names of all-time…although based on the depth of your previous posts rackensack, I am guessing you know exactly who he is…

The whole problem with exercises like this is that deserving players always get left out. You’ll note that Hornsby’s not on my team either, though you can make a compelling case that he should be. As I indicated earlier, Maddux is extremely close to pushing someone else off my list, but whom? I’d like not to lose any lefties, and Newhouser is closest to being on the bubble objectively. I’d also like to keep Wilhelm as the only relief specialist (and a lefty). That would leave only Gibson and Clemens vulnerable; I understand the points made in Maddux’s favor, but there are points to be made the other way as well. Lose Gibson or Clemens and you give up over 900 and over 1200 strikeouts respectively. I don’t worship the K, but it is a negative event for the offense with absolutely no mitigating upside (no opportunity to advance a runner as a result of the play).

I’m also not factoring in Maddux’s performance this year, which has been absolutely consistent with the last several – if anything, he’s likely to end up with better numbers in almost every respect than in the last couple (especially since he’s been nearly untouchable lately – unscored on in the last 30 innings or so). Taking that into account, he might well move up into my staff after as little as one more solid season, though I’d be loathe to lose Gibson for personal reasons: he pitched the very first major league game I saw in person, against the Astros in the Dome in 1971, and I was a die-hard Cardinal fan growing up. If I have to lose either Clemens or Gibson, my head says Gibson goes, my heart says Clemens does.

Barring injury or utter collapse, Maddux will undoubtedly take his place on my list by the time he hangs up his spikes. Clemens is four years older, though he’s only got two years on Maddux in major league experience, and as a power pitcher most of his career he’s more likely to finally wear himself out soon (though many thought he’d have done so before now); I’d expect him to retire well before Maddux does (Maddux could easily put in another four to six years). Take Maddux’s numbers from 1988 to 1999, average them out, and you get a seasonal average of:



W	L	G	GS	CG	SHO	SV	IP	H	ER	HR	BB	SO	ERA
18	9	33	33	8	2	0	240	211	70	11	51	170	2.63


Give him five more years (including this one) at that rate (perfectly plausible, though by no means certain), having him retire at 38, and that would make his career totals:



W	L	G	GS	CG	SHO	SV	IP	H	ER	HR	BB	SO	ERA
310	171	603	599	131	39	0	4270	3818	1310	214	944	3010	2.76


At that point (indeed, probably sometime well before it), I’d have to take Maddux over Gibson. As it stands, he and Clemens are already lead-pipe cinch Hall of Famers, probably first ballot (though you can never overestimate the perversity of the BBWA).

And yes, I’m well aware of Mordecai Brown’s claims to be included as well (I must have heard Skip Caray trot out his “you could always count on him to give you 60%” line a hundred times or more). Not to mention Carl Hubbell, Whitey Ford, and Ted Lyons. They’re all right on the cusp.

Nor will I. Much as I like and admire Sutton (there is something to be said for never missing a start in a 23 year career), he wasn’t a patch on any of the guys in my list or any of a dozen others I’d put ahead of him. Hall of Famer, yes. One of the 20 or so greatest pitchers ever, no. Staying around forever doesn’t get you on my team any more than short-term brilliance does, or I’d have Jim Kaat, Charlie Hough, and Rick Honeycutt on there.