# The greatest sportsperson.... ever? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2002, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672 "2002-09-09T16:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/41 "2002-09-11T03:33:20Z")
This is not to take away from The Don’s other achievements. I was just trying to make a point about Tendulkar. Robot Arm - when I said that Schumacher had broken every pretty much every record there was to break, I should have said _almost_. My mistake. You’re right, Schumacher did only just equal Fangio’s record, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will get his sixth, and record-breaking, title next season. The only record I don’t see him breaking is that of the highest number of pole positions, which I think belongs to Senna. ---
**Author:** ![BamBam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@BamBam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BamBam)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/42 "2002-09-11T03:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gouda \* > **The conditions under which cricket was played in those days (the 30’s and 40’s) is like a holiday for today’s players.** **Gouda** I do not wish to take away from Tendulkar, he is a great batsman. However, he isn’t a shadow on Bradman. Not even close. And referring to your above quote, to play England they had to spend a month on a boat to get there, and they were allowed to bowl bouncers every ball. If you have ever seen Documentaries on the Bodyline series, you will see that batting then was a bloody lot harder than it is now. The pitches weren’t as good and every ball is coming at your head! Nowadays bowlers are allowed ONE ball per over above the shoulders. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/43 "2002-09-11T06:40:20Z")
Could Gary Kasparov be considered? I don’t know much about chess, but I think I remember reading a write-up about how Kasparov is the best chess player the world has _ever_ seen. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/44 "2002-09-11T07:04:44Z")
My nomination for the athlete that dominated his sport would be [**Edwin Moses**](http://www.majortaylorassociation.org/moses_bio.html). > [@](#): > > For the next decade he dominated the hurdles, accumulating the most amazing string of consecutive victories ever amassed by an individual athlete. Over a period of nearly 10 years, from August 1977 until May 1987, Moses collected 122 straight victories. Some are having trouble listing the greatest American Football player, so I’ll nominate [**Jim Brown**](http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/history/hof_brownj.php). > [@](#): > > Brown was the NFL’s leading rusher in eight of his nine NFL seasons. He was named to the All-NFL team eight times. Brown was the NFL’s Most Valuable Player in 1958 and '65. He was the NFL’s Rookie of the Year in 1957 and played in nine straight Pro Bowls. Brown’s career totals were: 12,312 yards rushing, 262 receptions and 15,459 combined net yards. Brown scored 756 points in his career. He quit at the top of his game. He says that it was because he was smarter than other athletes that don’t know when to quit. Truth is that he thought he was going to become a great movie star. Greatest athlete? **Jim Thorpe** who else? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/45 "2002-09-11T07:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gouda \* > Robot Arm - when I said that Schumacher had broken every pretty much every record there was to break, I should have said _almost_. My mistake. You’re right, Schumacher did only just equal Fangio’s record, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will get his sixth, and record-breaking, title next season. The only record I don’t see him breaking is that of the highest number of pole positions, which I think belongs to Senna. I didn’t mean to sound like I was coming down on you. I’m just a bit disenchanted with Formula 1 these days. I don’t doubt that Schumacher is spectacularly talented at what he does, but modern F1 just seems so passionless and clinical. I’m too young to remember any of the Good Old Days, but the stories from back then are epic: Fangio in 1957 coming from behind to win at the Nurburgring; Eau Rouge and the Masta kink at Spa; the days when drivers were fat and tires were skinny. Now it’s a science, back then it was an art. I hate to see old legends forgotten, but maybe I’m just a curmudgeon in training. One snag in comparing statistics, by the way, is that now there are so many more races per year than there used to be. I read somewhere that Fangio’s winning percentage is considered untouchable, but with the season Schumacher’s been having I’d have to see if that still holds up. ---
**Author:** ![zen101](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c68b51/32.png) [@zen101](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zen101)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/46 "2002-09-11T10:02:23Z")
**Jim Thorpe** Gets my vote as well, at least for atheletes I’m familliar with. **BamBam** : Your nominee of **Bradman** sounds like an incredible athelete as well. I’m sorry I’m not familliar with him or to any great degree the sports he played. ---
**Author:** ![Indy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@Indy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/47 "2002-09-11T10:47:48Z")
for rickjay and astorian: still not quite buying it, and you can’t just look at pure numbers compared from the dead ball and live ball era, I could use my own. You say Wagner and Lajoie et. al. were Cobbs peers, but they didn’t come close - 11 batting titles, 6 SB titles, and 8 slugging titles in 13 years, and creating runs? over 2000 runs and rbi’s in that career. And Ruth had peers too, only they were as distant as Cobbs. In the early 20’s Rogers Hornsby hit .400 three times and won 2 triple crowns. Now, you say, yeah, but he was the only power hitter in the NL (except Cy Williams). This was Ruth’s absolute peak time when HE was the only modern power hitter in the AL, but he couldn’t do that, and by the late 20’s Foxx, Simmons, Gehrig, and Hack Wilson had joined the power gang. wait! I won’t go on like this, you guys’ll like what I’ll do next. Trust me. This is the “most times leading the league” game, which (although not as spectacular as pure numbers), is a good measure of a player’s talent vs. competition. The players that pop up the most here are Ruth, Cobb, Hornsby, Williams, and Musial (he always gets lost, doesn’t he?) so I’ll only use them. Average: Cobb 11, Hornsby 7, Musial 7, Williams 6, Ruth 1 On base %: Williams 12, Ruth 10, Hornsby 9, Cobb 7, Musial 6 Slugging %: Ruth 13, Hornsby 9, Williams 9, Cobb 8, Musial 6 OPS: Ruth 13, Hornsby 11, Cobb 10, Williams 10, Musial 7 Games played: Musial 5 Runs scored: Ruth 8, Williams 6, Cobb Hornsby Musial tied at 5 Hits: Cobb 8, Musial 6, Hornsby 4 Total Bases: Hornsby 7, Cobb Williams Musial Ruth tied at 6 (that’s gotta say something) Doubles: Musial 8, Hornsby 4, Cobb 3 Triples: Musial 5, Cobb 4 Homers: Ruth 12, Williams 4, Hornsby 2, Cobb 1 RBI: Ruth 6, Cobb Hornsby Williams tied at 4, Musial 2 Walks: Ruth 11, Williams 8, others less than 5 (too lazy to look it up) Strikeouts: Ruth 5 (this says more than you think, the other guys very rarely struck out) Steals: Cobb 6 (none of the others ran and Cobb retired with both single season and career marks that lasted 50 years) Adjusted OPS (for era, and this is a biggie): Ruth 13, Hornsby 12, Cobb 11, Williams 9, Musial 6 Extra base hits: Musial and Ruth 7, Hornsby 6, Williams 5, Cobb 3 times on base: Musial Ruth Williams tied at 8, Cobb and Hornsby 4 that was fun. if you look at the records, no other players (Wagner, Aaron and co. included) come close to these five, and you could argue that these were the five greatest hitters ever, dominating their eras like no other hitters did. Admittedly, Musial lags a bit in some of the categories, but who wouldn’t? And he was certainly the most gentlemanly and sportsmanlike of the pack. Williams was often surly, Cobb was a jerk, Ruth was a big little boy, and Hornsby was a bit of a nutcase who ate steak for breakfast, lunch, and dinner because he said it improved his vision (maybe it did). Curiousiy here prompts this question, what do you guys draw from this? Indy ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/48 "2002-09-11T12:14:23Z")
Another vote for Bradman here. Not only is he head and shoulders above any other batsman of any era (in a game that has not altered materially since his era, same bat, same ball) he also redefined the rules (the legside fielding rule). An American sport magazine (Sorry can’t remember which one) did a survey and Sir Donald won, as his average is so far in excess of his peers. Sachin Tendulkar is the closesst I’ve seen to Bradman, and given the extraordinary pressures on him (think of who the most famous sportman in your country is and multiply by he population of India - yes all of them) he is fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/49 "2002-09-11T13:37:28Z")
Hey **Robot Arm** , no offense was taken! Its just that I’m a passionate Schumacher fan, and I think he’s the best ever 😛 I agree though, that F1 is too tech-intensive. I did a read up on **Jim Thorpe**. He gets my vote!! A small point though. In my OP, I asked about who amongst _currently active_ athletes could be considered in a list of candidates. So far, almost all the nominees are dead!! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/50 "2002-09-11T13:38:59Z")
From what I hear about Bradman, he was an amazing athlete, far, far superior to his competition. One thing I am unsure of, what does Test Batting Average mean? Since I know very little of Cricket, I don’t know how to evaluate that stat. WRT Baseball, the thing that really, IMHO puts Ruth head and shoulders above the pack is that he set records in statistics that have become very important, and his records lasted a long time. In fact, I just checked this morning, he STILL has the record in OPS (On base + Slugging) based on his 1920 season. OPS is considered a rather comprehensive offense statistic, referenced quite often these days. It includes Batting Average, Power and Selectivity. Even Barry Bonds remarkable offensive year 2001 did not eclipse Ruth in this statistic (by a hair). Barry seemed to get either a homerun, a hit, or a walk every single time to the plate and was all but unstoppable, and he still didn’t break Ruth’s mark. Even with all of the expansion years, “juiced” balls, small ballparks, weight lifting regimens, etc. Ruth still owns overall offensive production. Heck, the Babe’s workout regimen was to eat a half dozen hot dogs before a game! For over 80 years players have been trying to match Ruth’s accomplishments, and have failed. Add to that this fact, Ruth was a very successful pitcher before moving over to be a position player. Imagine today, an ace pitcher being asked to stop pitching and move to the outfield. It is unthinkable. Pitchers have traditionally been rather anemic offensive players, in large part due to a lack of practice in batting, I’m sure. Ruth was able to demonstrate such prowess with the bat (in limited opportunity) that his team was willing to give up his excellent pitching just to have him play every day. Truly an amazing player. ---
**Author:** ![gouda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c77e96/32.png) [@gouda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gouda)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/51 "2002-09-11T13:39:59Z")
Hey **Robot Arm** , no offense was taken! Its just that I’m a passionate Schumacher fan, and I think he’s the best ever 😛 I agree though, that F1 is too tech-intensive. I did a read up on **Jim Thorpe**. He gets my vote!! A small point though. In my OP, I asked about who amongst _currently active_ athletes could be considered in a list of candidates. Thats why my list of probables had only contemporary athletes. Otherwise, almost all the other nominees so far are dead!! Damn!! Double post happened… ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/52 "2002-09-11T15:11:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*From what I hear about Bradman, he was an amazing athlete, far, far superior to his competition. One thing I am unsure of, what does Test Batting Average mean? Since I know very little of Cricket, I don’t know how to evaluate that stat. \*\* A batting average in cricket (test or otherwise) is calculated by adding up the number of runs scored and dividing by the number of times the batsman was dissmissed. A batting average of above 30 is considered adequate (for a specialist batsman), above 40 good, above 50 excellent and above 60 exceptional. In the light of that, an average of 99.94 is truly remarkable. Some other career Test averages for comparison ```auto Name Mat I NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 Team DG Bradman 52 80 10 6996 334 99.94 29 13 AUS RG Pollock 23 41 4 2256 274 60.97 7 11 RSA GA Headley 22 40 4 2190 270* 60.83 10 5 WI H Sutcliffe 54 84 9 4555 194 60.73 16 23 ENG AC Gilchrist 31 44 8 2160 204* 60.00 6 11 AUS E Paynter 20 31 5 1540 243 59.23 4 7 ENG KF Barrington 82 131 15 6806 256 58.67 20 35 ENG ED Weekes 48 81 5 4455 207 58.61 15 19 WI WR Hammond 85 140 16 7249 336* 58.45 22 24 ENG SR Tendulkar 100 160 15 8405 217 57.96 30 34 IND ``` Bradman was a truly remarkable batsman… Grim ---
**Author:** ![Jerrybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8c91f0/32.png) [@Jerrybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jerrybear)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/53 "2002-09-12T18:30:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shelbo \* > \*\*:: mild hijack :: > > Brett Farv-ruh?! > > guffaw! > > :: end hijack :: \*\* Let me guess…you are probably a Bears fan who is sick of Brett and the Packers beating Crapcago on a regular basis? Or maybe you are a fan of the Minnechoka “Never won a Super Bowl, Never will!” CryKings? ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/54 "2002-09-12T22:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gouda \* > \*\*A small point though. In my OP, I asked about who amongst _currently active_ athletes could be considered in a list of candidates. Thats why my list of probables had only contemporary athletes. Otherwise, almost all the other nominees so far are dead!! > \*\* So you did. I think that the qualifications as stated several times still apply - being clearly dominant compared to their peers - still apply. In that case: Tiger Woods. There is an argument for Michael Schumacher, but F-1 is so dependent on the car and he drives the best or nearly the best car. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2002, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672/55 "2002-09-12T22:46:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gouda \* > \*\*A small point though. In my OP, I asked about who amongst _currently active_ athletes could be considered in a list of candidates. Thats why my list of probables had only contemporary athletes. Otherwise, almost all the other nominees so far are dead!! > \*\* So you did. I think that the qualifications as stated several times still apply - being clearly dominant compared to their peers - still apply. In that case: Tiger Woods. There is an argument for Michael Schumacher, but F-1 is so dependent on the car and he drives the best or nearly the best car. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-greatest-sportsperson-ever/127672.md?page=2)