# The Guardian nails it: Childless at 52: How sweet it would be to be called Dad **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2016, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658 "2016-08-13T08:34:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/41 "2016-08-14T04:00:04Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Because I think romantic love is similar to but not as strong as parental love. If you have experienced romantic love, I think you have experienced an increased amount of empathy and understanding of the human condition and I think not just for that one person but for others outside that relationship as well, and with parental love I think it is greater still, at least it was for me personally. And just like with parental love, the ability to experience true romantic love requires you to pay a price in that for gaining the ability to experience those emotions and feelings you have also opened yourself up to the possibility of pain and emotional trauma or sorrow. I understand what you’re trying to say but by the same token there are a million experiences that can only be understood by having them, from having a mental illness, to going to war, to losing a spouse. And all of those things leave you wide open and vulnerable and force you to experience the world in new ways. And IME people either take a situation like that and grow from it or they close down and become lesser for it. I can’t describe to you what the terror of falling in love was like for me. The level of vulnerability is outrageous, magnified by the fact that we were only 19 and it was so not a part of my life plan at that point. For all your best intentions, marriage is a total crapshoot, but the payoff when it works out is nothing short of profound. I felt a similar terror when I got pregnant 12 years later, and a grief I cannot articulate when we lost the baby. So I do understand what you’re trying to say. It just honestly sounds to me like you didn’t do much living before you had children. That having children opened you up as a person and made you see the world with new eyes, that’s wonderful. But I could just as easily say you haven’t lived until you’ve gone to social work school - grad school radically transformed my life and forever changed the way I see the world. Sorry you missed out. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/42 "2016-08-14T04:44:12Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > . . . You cynics can go ahead and puke now. I ain’t that kind of cynic. (Now, ask me about science education in the U.S., and I’ll give ya an earful!) I’m glad there are parents out there, especially the ones trying to be good ones. > [@](#): > > . . . Parenting is HARD. It doesn’t come with a manual. . . . After all this time, has no one ever actually written one? Dang! (Actually, I just Googled, and there are a lot of them. I especially get a grin out of “Parenting for Dummies.”) But, as they say, “It takes a village…” ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/43 "2016-08-14T08:44:25Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > As a former abused child, I will say some of the most heartless, cruel, sociopathic people in the human race are parents. So no, having children does not make one emotionally complete (unless complete is being defined as complete sadist.). Which is one of the few things in which I ever agree with **ZPG Zealot**. Daughter, granddaughter, great-granddaughter, great-great-granddaughter and niece of parents who were abusive or heavily neglectful in different ways here. I was terrified that having children would turn me into a monster like my mother, aunt, grandparents, grandfather’s mother and grandmother. Eventually I realized that it wouldn’t - in fact, I realized that if I’d happened to become an official parent, I would have behaved very similarly as how I behaved when I was co-parenting my brothers. Becoming a parent won’t give empathy to those who do not have it, nor kill it in those who do. **cmyk** , read again what she wrote. Read it for real. She did not write that ALL parens are shitty, but that SOME are, and that if you’re a shitty person, parenthood won’t fix it. You’re reading what she did not write. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/44 "2016-08-14T13:04:33Z")
> [@Skypist](#): > > That’s the kind of comment that childfree/childless by choice people often get - oh, you say you don’t want a child because you’re afraid, but you might change your mind if you have one… Then again, you might not. Which would suck because you can’t just take the kid back. Unless you live in New Jersey where you have 30 days to drop them off at a hospital, police or fire station, no questions asked. (You find out these things when they are up all night crying). > [@Skypist](#): > > But I’m still not sure how that makes someone a better person, more empathic, etc., or does anything out of the ordinary, frankly. Certainly raising children to become functional adults is better for society than not, but certainly childless/childfree people can find other ways to contribute to society. It makes you better/more/etc than what you were. Not necessarily better than everyone else. It makes you more empathetic and less selfish because you literally have to prioritize the needs of another little person over your own. And they will tell you when you aren’t doing it correctly. > [@Skypist](#): > > Plus, taking good care of your children is not just a selfless endeavor. It benefits the parent to raise kids who will grow up and have their own kids, thus carrying on the line. It benefits the parent to raise kids who will not be jerks and who you can actually enjoy spending time with. You have to be selfless when raising kids, but you can still enjoy the experience (otherwise why have them?) Plus it’s always nice to have a genetic copy of your major organs out there. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/45 "2016-08-14T13:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > your kids surprise you in ways that simply cannot be a part of the human experience until you go through them yourselves. > > It’s hardly all sunshine and rainbows. In fact, it’s mostly frustrating and a lesson in patience. But there are moments of profound insight and recognition that you just can’t get from anything else. I’m going to have to beg to differ here. Have you ever been a long term caregiver to an invalid? Because I’m here to tell you, it’s a transformative experience and there is NO greater lesson in patience, or more profound insight than anything child rearing can produce. It’s ridiculously short sighted to assume the child rearing experience alone can produce increased empathy, profound transformation or some special insight. Persons who comment that the childless are immature or emotionally stunted are simply projecting, nothing more. You can’t possibly know another’s emotion life, what life lessons they’ve faced, or what challenges they’ve overcome etc. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/46 "2016-08-14T13:46:57Z")
The “selflessness” and “sacrifice” you learn through raising children is to a large extent _to your own benefit_. It doesn’t make you a better person with respect to the people in whom you don’t have a similar personal investment. And this is obvious, considering that all the atrocities of human history were conducted largely by people who were parents. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/47 "2016-08-14T13:47:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You have to be selfless when raising kids No, man. You don’t. Plenty of people with children are selfish as hell. That’s the point people seem to be missing here. It’s entirely possible for the experience to open you up in new ways, increase your empathy and make you a better person. It’s also entirely dependent on the person whether that’s going to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/48 "2016-08-14T13:55:25Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > **cmyk** , read again what she wrote. Read it for real. She did not write that ALL parens are shitty, but that SOME are, and that if you’re a shitty person, parenthood won’t fix it. You’re reading what she did not write. But everybody knows that. Everybody has heard of abused children. Most everybody understands that the worst sorts are very rare. We don’t need to see **ZPGZ** jumping right in with relentless hostile negativity into every thread that mentions “parents” or “children.” Her experience is _not_ applicable to a general discussion by and about typical parents. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/49 "2016-08-14T13:58:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The “selflessness” and “sacrifice” you learn through raising children is to a large extent _to your own benefit_. It doesn’t make you a better person with respect to the people in whom you don’t have a similar personal investment. I think it often does. A parent’s interest in their children’s future, if they have any wisdom at all, has to include the larger communities they will live in. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/50 "2016-08-14T14:07:51Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But everybody knows that. Everybody has heard of abused children. Most everybody understands that the worst sorts are very rare. We don’t need to see **ZPGZ** jumping right in with relentless hostile negativity into every thread that mentions “parents” or “children.” Her experience is _not_ applicable to a general discussion by and about typical parents. But the discussion is not about typical parents, it was about all parents and against the childless. It was already framed as “having children WILL make you a better person and if you do not have children you are incomplete”. She was responding to that. Disregarding the experiences of those who either could not have children or chose not to have them because “we do not count” is bad enough, but now we also cannot say that bad parents exist and that reproduction isn’t a magic fix for bad people or bad relationships? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/51 "2016-08-14T14:08:40Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But everybody knows that. Everybody has heard of abused children. Most everybody understands that the worst sorts are very rare. We don’t need to see **ZPGZ** jumping right in with relentless hostile negativity into every thread that mentions “parents” or “children.” Her experience is _not_ applicable to a general discussion by and about typical parents. According to [this NPR report](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/06/02/318227196/odds-of-abuse-and-mistreatment-add-up-over-childrens-lives), approximately 12.5% of children experience abuse or neglect, with higher rates for minority groups, including African-Americans at 21%. Of course, that doesn’t count other damaging behaviors that may not fit the standard criteria of abuse, such as overly permissive parenting, etc which have been shown to have devastating outcomes as well. **ZPG Zealot** may have a hostile view toward parenting but her experience is absolutely relevant to the discussion of whether or not parenting makes one a better person. It’s kind of terrible how consistently people who had good parents are trying to downplay the reality that many of us didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/52 "2016-08-14T14:57:04Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > According to [this NPR report](http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/06/02/318227196/odds-of-abuse-and-mistreatment-add-up-over-childrens-lives), approximately 12.5% of children experience abuse or neglect, with higher rates for minority groups, including African-Americans at 21%. I’ll have to read that to see what the definitions used are. At face value, though, it confirms that the substantial majority of parents, typical parents, are not abusive. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > **ZPG Zealot** may have a hostile view toward parenting but her experience is absolutely relevant to the discussion of whether or not parenting makes one a better person. It’s kind of terrible how consistently people who had good parents are trying to downplay the reality that many of us didn’t. From where I sit, I see **ZPGZ** , with occasional support, but always her, consistently trying to deny the reality of many of us who _are_ parents. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/53 "2016-08-14T15:04:14Z")
> [@pool](#): > > So in my mind its the same thing some people never fall in love or experience those things and I think whether due to choice to not be put in that situation or through no choice of their own, I think they are less mature and emotionally complete than those who have experienced it. I don’t really mean that they are lesser than I am in the sense that I am superior to them, like a better person, just that I’ve done things and felt things that they can’t really understand without having gone through it and I can tell the difference between the person I was before, and the person I am now. The problem is that when you use words like “stunted”, “less mature” and “incomplete” in such a context you ARE saying they are lesser people. There’s no way around that. Your statement carries a judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/54 "2016-08-14T15:10:49Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But everybody knows that. Everybody has heard of abused children. Most everybody understands that the worst sorts are very rare. We don’t need to see **ZPGZ** jumping right in with relentless hostile negativity into every thread that mentions “parents” or “children.” Her experience is _not_ applicable to a general discussion by and about typical parents. On the other hand, it’s a good illustration of someone who was wise NOT to have children of her own. Someone that hostile towards parenthood, with that sort of baggage, should not have children, should not be pressured to have children, and should not be looked down upon as “stunted” or “incomplete” for having the wisdom to not take on a responsibility they would not do well in fulfilling. Knowing your limitations is, in fact, a form of maturity and responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/55 "2016-08-14T15:20:23Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But the discussion is not about typical parents, it was about all parents and against the childless. It was already framed as “having children WILL make you a better person and if you do not have children you are incomplete”. She was responding to that. Disregarding the experiences of those who either could not have children or chose not to have them because “we do not count” is bad enough, but now we also cannot say that bad parents exist and that reproduction isn’t a magic fix for bad people or bad relationships? Really? I think you might have to re-read ZPG’s post again. She explicitly says becoming a parent doesn’t make you complete (with that I agree), unless you mean a complete sadist (wholly disagree). You agree with that? I don’t think anyone here is denying bad parents exist, or parental abuse/neglect, or having kids is just not their thing, or trying to have kids to fix a broken relationship is a bad idea. I’m just testifying for myself that having kids is indeed a unique and profound experience/lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/56 "2016-08-14T15:32:06Z")
I really, really wanted to be a dad for some reason. I did and my life has been hell since. I love my kids, but I’m overwhelmed with 2 of them and attempting to have any life of my own (I don’t). I find myself wishing for them to grow up faster so I can finally have any money or freedom. It doesn’t help that I regret my choice in mother of the children, but I think somewhere around 70% of marriages fail. So that’s not something necessarily about me. Yeah, I would take a bullet for them, but maybe that’s a character flaw (for me). Frankly, I think I really wanted to be useful and needed. Having kids was something I rushed into because I wasn’t already complete with myself. I know I’m a good dad but the stress is getting to me and definitely affecting my health My kids will be alright but I cant help wondering if they’d be better off if I had died and left a decent life insurance payout or something. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/57 "2016-08-14T15:39:22Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > I think it often does. A parent’s interest in their children’s future, if they have any wisdom at all, has to include the larger communities they will live in. This is obviously not true. Otherwise we wouldn’t have things like resistance to desegregation of schools. We wouldn’t have parents pulling their kids out of public schools and putting them in private schools. We wouldn’t have parents seeking government funding of private schools. We wouldn’t have people opposing mixed-income neighborhoods. We wouldn’t have people opposing affordable housing in their neighborhoods. We wouldn’t have a lot of problems. We wouldn’t have people buying oversized houses and cars that take up disproportional resources. We wouldn’t have a lot of social problems that have always existed. Our entire human history is pretty much proof that being a parent doesn’t make you a better person in terms of people who aren’t your children. We struggle on a societal and political level always, even though for most of our history, most people have been parents. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/58 "2016-08-14T15:47:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > …After all this time, has no one ever actually written one? Dang! (Actually, I just Googled, and there are a lot of them. I especially get a grin out of “Parenting for Dummies.”) > > But, as they say, “It takes a village…” Oh, there’s plenty of manuals out there. Just never one for _your_ kid. **actualliberalnotoneofthose** brings up another aspect of being a parent: Children can be unholy nightmares. Yeh… sometimes that doesn’t bring out the best in you. Yet, unlike him though, I don’t regret the time, cost, effort and patience it took to raise them (and it was brutal a lot of the time). It was hardest when they were young, now they’re mostly autonomous. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/59 "2016-08-14T15:56:32Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is obviously not true. > > Otherwise we wouldn’t have things like resistance to desegregation of schools. We wouldn’t have parents pulling their kids out of public schools and putting them in private schools. We wouldn’t have parents seeking government funding of private schools. We wouldn’t have people opposing mixed-income neighborhoods. We wouldn’t have people opposing affordable housing in their neighborhoods. We wouldn’t have a lot of problems. We wouldn’t have people buying oversized houses and cars that take up disproportional resources. We wouldn’t have a lot of social problems that have always existed. > > Our entire human history is pretty much proof that being a parent doesn’t make you a better person in terms of people who aren’t your children. We struggle on a societal and political level always, even though for most of our history, most people have been parents. I think that’s mainly ZPG’s point. Why have children at all, when the world’s already so fucked up, and kids will just continue it ad infinitum? Why not just end it all? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658/60 "2016-08-14T16:03:19Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I think that’s mainly ZPG’s point. Why have children at all, when the world’s already so fucked up, and kids will just continue it ad infinitum? Why not just end it all? No, my point is nothing like this point. My point is that having children doesn’t make you—relative to someone without children—more sympathetic to people who aren’t your children. That doesn’t mean society is doomed or anything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardian-nails-it-childless-at-52-how-sweet-it-would-be-to-be-called-dad/762658.md?page=4)