# The Guardian's Kremlin leak: Too good to be true? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2021, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632 "2021-07-16T10:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/1 "2021-07-16T10:30:40Z")
(I haven’t seen a thread about this, which surprises me somewhat, so if there already is one, please redirect me appropriately) Yesterday, the Guardian published an article on a supposed leaked document from the Kremlin, detailing a plan to use manipulation and dissemination of false information to get Trump into office as a means of creating ‘social turmoil’ in the US and weaken its stand in international politics: > **[Kremlin papers appear to show Putin’s plot to put Trump in White House](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/15/kremlin-papers-appear-to-show-putins-plot-to-put-trump-in-white-house)** > > Exclusive: Documents suggest Russia launched secret multi-agency effort to interfere in US democracy Additionally, they have reported on the sort of picture the leaked papers are painting of Trump as a “mentally unstable”, "impulsive” and “unbalanced” individual that would serve to “weaken” America: > **[The person to ‘weaken’ America: what the Kremlin papers said about Trump](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/15/the-person-to-weaken-america-what-the-kremlin-papers-said-about-trump)** > > Documents appear to show how Russian intelligence worked to install their preferred candidate as president Now, I don’t have any trouble imagining that something like this might be what has happened. But, and perhaps it’s just my jadedness thanks to, you know, having been on the internet for a while, it all seems just kinda, as the Washington Post put it, _too neat_: > **[Analysis | A blockbuster document purportedly from the Kremlin raises lots of...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/15/blockbuster-document-purportedly-kremlin-raises-lots-questions-about-itself/)** > > The document purports to capture the creation of the Russian interference effort, but there's plenty of reason for skepticism. If there were to be any indication of Kremlin-involvement to leak out, it seems rather dubious to me that they would be of this slam-dunk, yet vague nature, with many points that we can see to have been spot-on in hindsight, but that seem to demonstrate a scary level of prescience if the document is genuine. So I’m really on the fence here, and I guess I’ll just have to wait for more information to come out. In the meantime, what do you think? Smoking gun of Putin’s plan to weaken the US by installing a buffoon at the top? A hoax? Perhaps even a double-bluff, which in time will be exposed by those who fabricated it to show the gullibility of those that believed it? Or just to sow chaos for chaos’ sake? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/2 "2021-07-16T10:34:40Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > (I haven’t seen a thread about this, which surprises me somewhat, so if there already is one, please redirect me appropriately) The original Pit thread for the Mueller Investigation got a bump with the info about this, which caused Discourse to automatically make a new thread. So there’s some discussion of it here: > [A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-2/946549) That’s not to say we can’t have a non-Pit thread. But you might want to read in there. Some people are also suspicious, including the poster who bumped the thread. But there are also people talking about how apparently they’ve been vetting it for a while. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/3 "2021-07-16T10:55:34Z")
The Guardian consulted a number of security experts before publishing, and they all seem to think it’s genuine. Anyway they got Trump’s character right! > There is a brief psychological assessment of Trump, who is described as an “impulsive, mentally unstable and unbalanced individual who suffers from an inferiority complex”. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/4 "2021-07-16T11:52:18Z")
Also this one in P&E: > [@Remember the piss tape?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/remember-the-piss-tape/946579/13): > > In the long run, months, years, or decades, it will come out. I wonder if I will be alive to know the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/5 "2021-07-16T12:21:55Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Also this one in P&E: I am sorry. I do not understand what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/6 "2021-07-16T12:23:30Z")
I’m just pointing out that there’s another thread on this subject in this forum. I may have screwed up the link… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/7 "2021-07-16T12:34:14Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > If there were to be any indication of Kremlin-involvement to leak out, it seems rather dubious to me that they would be of this slam-dunk, yet vague nature Actually, that sounds like exactly the type of document that would be most effective at causing disruption, which is the likely objective (assuming the leak was deliberate). ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/8 "2021-07-16T13:41:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The original Pit thread for the Mueller Investigation got a bump with the info about this, which caused Discourse to automatically make a new thread. So there’s some discussion of it here: > > > [A Thread for the Mueller Investigation Results and Outcomes (Part 2)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-thread-for-the-mueller-investigation-results-and-outcomes-part-2/946549) > > That’s not to say we can’t have a non-Pit thread. > [@RitterSport](#): > > Also this one in P&E: > > > [@](#): > > > > In the long run, months, years, or decades, it will come out. I wonder if I will be alive to know the truth. OK, apparently I just suck at searching. I think three threads on the subject is one too many, so unless there’s anything anybody thinks should be discussed here, especially, I’d ask for this one to be closed. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/9 "2021-07-16T14:52:15Z")
I would suggest keeping this thread going, because it’s got the clearest title. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/10 "2021-07-16T14:53:32Z")
And here’s an interesting sceptical news item: > **[New Russiagate Docs: Bombshell or Hoax?](https://www.spytalk.co/p/new-russiagate-docs-bombshell-or)** > > The Guardian's scoop has many experts urging caution, questioning the "leak" ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/11 "2021-07-16T16:31:36Z")
It just seems too neat. Did they also bribe Coney? ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/12 "2021-07-16T17:58:15Z")
The story doesn’t seem to be getting a lot of traction. The _Washington Post_ ran one skeptical article about it, and the _New York Times_ has ignored it entirely. [Glenn Greenwald notes on Twitter](https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1415644917347622917?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1415644917347622917%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bizpacreview.com%2F2021%2F07%2F15%2Ftheyre-frauds-glenn-greenwald-skewers-sketchy-new-russia-trump-bombshell-as-journos-salivate-1104176%2F) that Luke Harding, one of the authors of the _Guardian_ article, has a history of “bombshells” that go nowhere—particularly a [2018 story claiming that Paul Manafort secretly met with Julian Assange](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/27/manafort-held-secret-talks-with-assange-in-ecuadorian-embassy). I am not a Greenwald fan, but I think he’s got a good point here. The major news outlets have been burned by this guy before. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/13 "2021-07-16T18:04:46Z")
I don’t really care if it’s true or not. It’s not like his base will turn on him even if it were true. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/14 "2021-07-16T19:28:59Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Anyway they got Trump’s character right! You really don’t need a degree in psychology or any non-public information to come to this conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/15 "2021-07-16T19:33:20Z")
To be sure, this won’t change the mind of a single Trumper. But I care whether it’s true or not, because we’ve been through this sort of thing before. George W. Bush skipped out on his National Guard duty, but that potentially troublesome issue magically evaporated after [Dan Rather fell for some faked documents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy). If Democrats hitch their wagon to this alleged Kremlin leak and it turns out to be a bust, it will be damaging for them and indirectly benefit Trump. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/16 "2021-07-16T20:51:28Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > … who suffers from an inferiority complex Except that it’s no complex. He _really is_ inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/17 "2021-07-17T14:57:13Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > many points that we can see to have been spot-on in hindsight, but that seem to demonstrate a scary level of prescience if the document is genuine. Not really. It was obvious that Trump was a fucking idiot long before he became president. I saw him interviewed about the birtherism thing and realized immediately that he was both a despicable person and a moron. But by the time he was a candidate for the Republican nomination there were plenty of media outlets explaining everything awful about him, if not simply mocking him. Knowing that he’d be an embarrassment to America was hardly something we needed to call Nostadamus in for. > [@Grrr](#): > > I don’t really care if it’s true or not. It’s not like his base will turn on him even if it were true. Yes, this. His base will either say the whole thing is fake news, or that Putin wanted Trump to be president because Trump’s great, and all the stuff about Trump being an idiot is either fake or Putin sticking it to the Libs. Meanwhile for people like me who despise Trump, this is the least surprising headline ever. The surprise would of course be _the opposite_ of this: “Komrades, Trump is clearly a powerful intellectual and formidable adversary. And we’re not going to interfere in American elections in any way, because that would be wrong!” ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/18 "2021-07-17T16:54:50Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Not really. It was obvious that Trump was a fucking idiot long before he became president. I saw him interviewed about the birtherism thing and realized immediately that he was both a despicable person and a moron. Sure, but that’s not what I meant. Rather, I’m talking about the consequences for America the document allegedly predicts. I don’t think it was obvious, back in 2016, that a Trump win would ‘definitely lead to the destabilisation of the US’s sociopolitical system’ and produce ‘social turmoil’, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guardians-kremlin-leak-too-good-to-be-true/946632/19 "2021-07-17T23:45:51Z")
There’s no need for certainty now. If it’s fake, that will come out. If not, its accuracy will be confirmed with time.