# The Gun Debate itself: a synthesis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739 "2012-12-21T14:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/41 "2012-12-21T22:09:53Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Look out. That contradicts the leader of the NRA who just said he wants a cop in every school and by implication in every place children congregate. So schools, playgrounds, Chucky Cheese for birthday parties, movie theaters, swimming pools, YMCAs, etc. etc. It is damned ugly to have armed guards in schools, but perhaps it would save some kids lives. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/42 "2012-12-21T22:27:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It is damned ugly to have armed guards in schools, but perhaps it would save some kids lives. Remember the hiring fiasco that became the TSA? Now imagine _that_ clusterfuck…only with guns for everyone. Imagine future slaughtermeisters finding out that not only will they be able to bring a gun into schools, but that the government is going to pay them to do it. How do you plan on screening out the nutcases, and how much more in time and money will such screening take? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/43 "2012-12-21T22:38:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Remember the hiring fiasco that became the TSA? No, I don’t have a clue. Was he speaking about off duty policemen, or random NRA members? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/44 "2012-12-21T22:44:47Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, I don’t have a clue. > Was he speaking about off duty policemen, or random NRA members? If he was talking about off-duty policemen, he’s an idiot of the highest magnitude. There wouldn’t be enough policemen in an average town to cover the schools, even if they all were _forced_ to take on this second job. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/45 "2012-12-21T22:49:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he was talking about off-duty policemen, he’s an idiot of the highest magnitude. There wouldn’t be enough policemen in an average town to cover the schools, even if they all were _forced_ to take on this second job. Retired policemen? Military veterans? Some of them are scary. Certainly not random NRA members. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/46 "2012-12-21T23:22:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If he was talking about off-duty policemen, he’s an idiot of the highest magnitude. There wouldn’t be enough policemen in an average town to cover the schools, even if they all were _forced_ to take on this second job. Case in point: for the presidential election, our township clerk asked for a police officer to be stationed at every polling place. The local police did not have the manpower to cover every building for the entire day; there was one building that had a full-day officer and the others had an officer at random times, and at the close of polls. That was for a single day. And this is a fairly affluent suburb; one you might think had the cash to pay out for the security, but they simply didn’t have enough cops. A full time, trained security officer in every school building, all day, every day? They’d have to double the size of the police force. Oh, and as a side note - the reason the clerk asked for the police protection? The last few elections in a row, some voter in one of the precincts made a big hairy deal about Carrying His Gun when he came in to vote. Not just wearing it, but making sure people knew he was Exercising His Second Amendment Rights. He made other voters nervous enough to complain, so the clerk asked for a full-time cop at his precinct specifically. And yeah, we heard later he apparently came in as expected, Wearing His Gun. The cop was taking a break at the moment. Nothing happened, as expected, the guy’s just a big blowhard; but if for some reason it had, the planned security wasn’t ready. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/47 "2012-12-21T23:46:47Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > some voter in one of the precincts made a big hairy deal about Carrying His Gun when he came in to vote. Not just wearing it, but making sure people knew he was Exercising His Second Amendment Rights. The guy is obviously an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/48 "2012-12-21T23:47:39Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Name another study or survey that counters that number. > > Go ahead, I’ll wait. > > The low end was 108,000 by a guy who thought the Kleck & Gertz study was too permissive; it came under fire for being too restrictive and discounting too many legitimate GDUs. > > Several other studies/surveys over the decades have been in the 250,000 - 1.5 mil range. > > Whose numbers would you believe? The F.B.I.'s? Don’t hold your breath, as they don’t collect those kinds of statistics. I’m not sure of any law enforcement agency, federal, state, county, or municipal, that does. > > So, in the absence of _any_ countervailing evidence, how do _you_ summarily dismiss the only evidence we _do_ have? So in the absence of other evidence, its ok to accept anything, even bad evidence, as the truth? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/49 "2012-12-22T00:39:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So in the absence of other evidence, its ok to accept anything, even bad evidence, as the truth? He’s disputing that the evidence he offered is bad. You offhandedly dismissed claims of self-defense use of guns as “fantasy”, without offering any real justification for that- other than your disdain for the whole pro-gun side. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/50 "2012-12-22T01:08:55Z")
I can think of at least one other problem with using defensive gun uses as a measure of the value of guns in self protection. In a [GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=676010) Chimera mentioned six different occasions where he warded off criminals by showing a weapon. In none of them did he have to discharge a weapon. Based on that set of data, why not just use a replica? Legally justified homicides with a firearm have the advantage of knowing that an operational firearm was required and eliminates some of the problems with using survey data. BigAppleBucky did an analysis of CDC data. There’s just not very many such homicides compared to just plain murders. ---
**Author:** ![Lauren-C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Lauren-C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lauren-C)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/51 "2012-12-22T01:21:46Z")
How could a blind person use a gun to defend against an attack by people with guns? Far better to restrict the gun supply by making them illegal, so criminals find it much harder to get hold of them. I’m so glad I live in a country that doesn’t have a constitution, where ancient, obsolete laws, written in, and for, another age, can be scrapped with a simple act of parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/52 "2012-12-22T01:23:43Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > As someone on the antigun side, I agree with your framing. > > However, I would argue that we \*do \*know pretty well what society would look like without guns. There are plenty of other countries with far more restrictive gun laws than the United States and they have been able to dramatically reduce gun deaths without triggering crime waves or governmental tyranny. Possibly; there’s also Mexico, which has strict gun laws and plenty of crime AND tyranny. And before you give the stock answer- it’s all the USA’s fault- consider the following hypothetical: it would be trivially easy for the Russian mafia to flood the British islands with guns; yet so far at least they haven’t. Unless British smuggling control is vastly more effective than on this side of the water, the only difference I can think of is that the demand simply isn’t there. Banning guns might give you another Japan or Britain- or it might give you another Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/53 "2012-12-22T01:27:24Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > In none of them did he have to discharge a weapon. Based on that set of data, why not just use a replica? If the other guy has one, you are up the proverbial creek without a means of propulsion. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/54 "2012-12-22T01:27:40Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Banning guns might give you another Japan or Britain- or it might give you another Mexico. Which of the countries you mention does the US most resemble? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/55 "2012-12-22T01:29:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If the other guy has one, you are up the proverbial creek without a means of propulsion. Maybe. I’m just drawing conclusions from the anecdotes that Chimera volunteered in a thread about statistics. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/56 "2012-12-22T01:38:58Z")
What is the fear of “Assault Rifles” based on? They are scary looking, they hold many cartridges, or they are attractive to crazy people? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/57 "2012-12-22T01:51:01Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Which of the countries you mention does the US most resemble? With eight years of Republicans, I’d have to say Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/58 "2012-12-22T02:04:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Self-reporting of when you were able to stop a crime and be a hero using your Rambo style shooting tactics is not newsworthy. I have fantasies like that too, but they involve swords and aliens. The NRA can put whatever they want in their magazine but you don’t have to believe it. You will if it feeds into your narrative that guns are used all the time to stop crime, but I’d hardly call these people objective observers. None of the items are simply self-reported. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/59 "2012-12-22T02:08:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > None of the items are simply self-reported. Yep, heck earlier this Summer I couldn’t even successfully report being the victim of a Pedestrian hit and run. The police had no interest in taking a report seeing as a head injury had impaired my ability to give a good description of a driver. The only time I ever had them file a report on a burglary was when I actively detained the thief. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739/60 "2012-12-22T05:23:46Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What is the fear of “Assault Rifles” based on? They are scary looking, they hold many cartridges, or they are attractive to crazy people? For me, at least, it’s the latter (and a bit of the second). It seems (based on probably faulty memory, not any sort of rigorous study) that the type of of person that does these mass shootings tends to prefer the paramilitary appearance - they are acting out a scenario they have played out many times in their heads. Would they be happy using a deer rifle with a wooden stock if a military-styled weapon weren’t available? I honestly don’t know. The larger magazine just incrementally increases the potential carnage. And has very little utility since you don’t need 30 rounds to take down a deer and I’m hard-pressed to imagine why squeezing off 30 shots at the range is more fulfilling than 10. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-gun-debate-itself-a-synthesis/644739.md?page=4)