The Gun Debate itself: a synthesis

When Obama and Bloomberg give up their armed guards and decide that guns are just no good for any of us, then we’ll see who puts their money where their mouth is.

On a separate note, Dover-Eyota MN schools just had an incident where a school kid brought a large knife to school with a handwritten hit list of who exactly he wanted to kill at school with this large knife…no CNN, no msnbc , no piers Morgan, no Nobama either…I guess it’s not going to help their anti-gun agenda so they could care less about this near tragedy involving a disturbed kid, a knife and a hit list in a rural school.

How many people did this kid kill? The lame-stream media wont’ tell me.

On the flip side a simple act of paliament can also remove your religious, speech and other freedoms. Not being able to easily scrap certain aspects of how the government work is a feature and not a bug.

Depends on whether the defensive gun use involves just showing the bad guy the weapon, or actually firing it. Double-action revolvers have a long, heavy trigger pull and greater felt recoil, which makes them hard to shoot as accurately as a semiautomatic pistol. I’m more likely to miss the bad guy if I’m using a revolver.

I’m anti-gun AND anti-gun control. The fact is that guns are simply not that significant. Non-self-inflicted gun deaths are rare, especially among non-criminals. Violent crime in general is rare.

Guns are objectively a poor choice for personal safety in most cases; the time and money involved in responsibly (or even irresponsibly) owning a gun would be far more effectively spent on the electrical wiring in your house or the brakes in your car or (if you’re in an especially crime-ridden area) security features for your house. The statistics show that owning a gun makes you slightly less safe on average. But that’s just an average; it’s entirely possible that in your particular case, owning a gun has a positive effect on you safety. It probably doesn’t, but it’s possible. It’s very unlikely to have a large positive effect comparable to that obtained by other means. And there is no evidence whatsoever that your owning a gun makes the rest of us safer on average, although obviously you can find individual cases of gun owners saving other people, just like you can find cases of gun owners accidentally killing other people.

At the same time, though, gun control like the AWB is almost laughably ineffective. And gun crime is already rare. Spree killings are rare (just newsworthy). Even if future gun sales could be absolutely prohibited from now on, it wouldn’t make us that much safer than we already are. Even if every gun in the US could be confiscated and melted down, the increase in safety would be small enough that I’m not sure it would be worth the cost. Spend that money on road improvements. That’s not to say that NO gun control laws are cost effective, and there have been some good suggestions here, but the anti-gun side in government and media seem incapable of distinguishing which ones those are.

And I do think that if the government wants to ban anything, it should have at least a plausible case for what benefit will be obtained. Especially when the thing to be banned is something people have strong feelings about. I hate our gun culture, I hate guns, and I would love to live in a society with fewer guns. I also hate reality tv, but I don’t think the government should ban it. My desire NOT to have reality tv banned is just as irrational and emotionally based as the gun lovers’ desire not to have his stupid, dangerous killing tools taken away. This can be proven by asking me whether I would want tv strictly censored by the government if it could be absolutely proven to lead to fewer deaths, smarter children, and better sex. Barring some really dramatic benefits in those areas, I’d say no. And not because I have data showing that freedom of speech benefits society in some tangible way. Canada and Europe have restrictions on speech that would never pass muster here. No, I would still want freedom of speech, even if it caused some harm, for exactly the same kind of fuzzy, pseudo-philosophical, emotionally-driven reasons that the pro-gun side wants gun rights.

Now, I try hard to be a rationalist. I don’t LIKE the fact that I base some decisions on fuzzy emotions. And I generally don’t think that fuzzy emotional reasons should guide public policy. But I also think that in public policy, the burden is on the side that wants to restrict freedom. I’m a liberal, not a libertarian, so I don’t set that bar too high, but I still think the null position is to oppose government action unless the benefit can be shown to outweigh the cost. And I think it is reasonable and rational to set the bar a bit higher when the people being regulated feel very strongly about it, even when I disagree with their feelings.

It’s not really a personal choice if the person’s brain is damaged by mental illness. For example, depressives are often impulsive. Further, depression affects an area of the brain which is used for making judgments. The depressed person may have no idea that that part of the brain is temporarily out of control. I support doctor assisted suicide, so I’m all about personal choice for people who are thinking clearly and aren’t just being impulsive.

It’s stuff like this that makes you guys look like idiots.

10% of America’s Presidents have been shot and killed, 1/3 have had assassination attempts against them.But you think that somehow the fact that Presidents have armed guards means that you need a gun as well, even though you are about 1/100,000th less likely to be killed than the President.

God I wish that a politician could stand up and make a speech like your post. It’s pretty much my feeling as well. I think that people who walk around with guns strapped to them are lunatics, but it doesn’t seem as though gun control laws are going to have much effect.

I don’t think that I need to have a gun. I don’t feel threatened, and even having a gun in the house would introduce an uneccessary element of threat.

In the the event that I felt threatened, however, I might want to arm myself. The right to defend oneself is, and should be, inalienable.

Sure its inaliable, but is it infinite? Can I keep an RPG in case a car tries to run me over, or surface to air anti aircraft missiles to keep away the people following me in a helicopter? An insane person clearly has the right to defend himself if he is being attacked, but does he have a right to carry a gun to be prepared for self defense?

Try again. See page 87, right-hand column.

Note that the place with the toughest gun control laws also has the highest homicide rate.

Now compare/contrast with the auto rates on page 86, and consider the OP’s commentary on utility, or even just perceived utility, of firearms in the two different cultures, as well as the best numbers available for defensive firearm usage.

The demand is there, alright, and we see it in the zip guns and reactivated DEWATs that the criminals do manage to get working.

Gunowners in many instances just don’t believe those who say they only want ‘sensible restrictions’ - they think the anti-faction will be back to the table for more once a new law has not made any visible difference. The first gun control laws in England made no visible difference, and looking at the text of the law now it is difficult to see that anyone could have convinced themselves it would have any effect - presumably it was regarded as a first step that could be built on later once the people and the legislature accepted the principle.

Where’s your dog?

But reasons and guidance are two different things. Reasons are motivation–why we act. Guidance is for how.

There’s nothing wrong with being motivated to action by an emotional response. This is intrinsic to our humanity; without it, life has no joy and no purpose. Emotion is necessary to have goals.

It’s perfectly natural that the country should feel collective horror at a massacre of children. Stopping that from happening again, if we can, is as valid a basis for public policy as anything else. Comparisons with other risks, the point that the chance of being murdered in a spree are minuscule–that’s worth knowing, but it doesn’t mean the outrage is misplaced. Most people feel that twenty kids being slaughtered together in school is much worse than twenty, or even many more, people dying of miscellaneous mundane causes.

The trick is in the next step. Once motivated, how do we go about achieving the goal? That’s where rationalism belongs. That’s where an instinctive, emotional reaction can be useless, or worse. That’s where it becomes incumbent to think about how such-and-such personal and policy response will meet our emotional demand, and how we know that.

I disagree with female circumcision and the severing of an insolent daughter’s nose. I just don’t think agreeing to disagree with the Taliban will change much, you know…

I quite agree with you, but, er, what the hell were we talking about?

My disdain is for the study’s methodology, well-known to have used self-reports as its “evidence”. Bad evidence is not evidence, and should be rightly dismissed.

Is this your typical semantic parsing? I suppose you’re going to tell me that there’s a difference between “self-reported” and “answering a survey in which you were contacted”

If self-reporting is unreliable then just how do you estimate the defensive use of guns, especially invisible cases of deterrence, when as given in the OP the pro-gun side claims positive uses of firearms are underreported? If someone says that a suspicious-looking person apparently backed off when they saw a firearm being carried, do you dismiss that as anecdotal even though it may be exactly one of the unnumbered defensive uses?

I agree it would be difficult. But just because it is difficult doesn’t mean we should just accept anything. Gun rights people want to claim that its impossible without self-reporting, so we should just accept it and hey, it supports their side so cool beans right? Sorry, but if self-reporting is the only way, then we simply need to find a better way. As far as anecdotal evidence is concerned, I’m sure everyone’s idea of a good anecdotal evidence varies with the degree of closeness the receiver is to the teller, and the degree to which they agree/disagree with the conclusion.

No. Both those are examples of self- reporting.

It’s becoming obvious you have no idea what these incidents are or how they are sourced.

Do you?