# The Guns Fell Silent at 11 **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 11, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985 "2023-11-11T15:52:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/1 "2023-11-11T15:52:34Z")
On the Western Front, 105 years ago. Roughly 40,000,000 casualties. Between 9,000,000 to 11,000,000 military deaths. Between 6,000,000 to 13,000,000 civilian deaths. Around 23,000,000 military wounded. _In Flanders fields the poppies blow_ _Between the crosses, row on row,_ _That mark our place; and in the sky_ _The larks, still bravely singing, fly_ _Scarce heard amid the guns below._ _We are the Dead. Short days ago_ _We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,_ _Loved and were loved, and now we lie,_ _In Flanders fields._ _Take up our quarrel with the foe:_ _To you from failing hands we throw_ _The torch; be yours to hold it high._ _If ye break faith with us who die_ _We shall not sleep, though poppies grow_ _In Flanders fields._ God rest their souls. > **[World War I casualties](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties)** > > The total number of military and civilian casualties in World War I was about 40 million: estimates range from around 15 to 22 million deaths and about 23 million wounded military personnel, ranking it among the deadliest conflicts in human history. > The total number of deaths includes from 9 to 11 million military personnel. The civilian death toll was about 6 to 13 million. The Triple Entente (also known as the Allies) lost about 6 million military personnel while the Central Powers lost abou... ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/2 "2023-11-11T16:05:19Z")
There was another “eleven” involved, [not so glorious](https://www.amazon.com/Eleventh-Month-Day-Hour-Armistice/dp/0375508252/ref=sr_1_1?crid=54W5T2R5Y5AO&keywords=eleventh+month+eleventh+day+eleventh+hour&qid=1699718583&sprefix=eleventh+day+eleventh+hour+%2Caps%2C160&sr=8-1). “The Allied generals knew the fighting would end precisely at 11:00 A.M, yet in the final hours they flung men against an already beaten Germany. The result? Eleven thousand casualties suffered–more than during the D-Day invasion of Normandy. Why? Allied commanders wanted to punish the enemy to the very last moment and career officers saw a fast-fading chance for glory and promotion.” > **[Nov. 11, 1918: Wasted Lives on Armistice Day](https://www.armytimes.com/veterans/salute-veterans/2017/11/10/nov-11-1918-wasted-lives-on-armistice-day/)** > > An essay from HistoryNet on the execution of the World War I armistice ... and how thousands on both sides may have died needlessly. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/3 "2023-11-11T16:13:18Z")
Alas, the “War to end all wars” failed miserably at anything but setting up the next war, which would be even more horrific. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/4 "2023-11-11T16:23:50Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > in the final hours they flung men against an already beaten Germany. Most of those eleven thousand were American as became clear at the Congressional enquiry:. > Bland, the other Republican on Subcommittee 3, knifed quickly to the heart of the matter when his turn came to question General Conner (Pershing’s chief of operations, Brig. Gen. Fox Conner) “Do you know of any good reason,“ Bland asked, “why the order to commanders…should not have been that the Armistice had been signed to take effect at 11 o’clock and that actual hostilities or fighting should cease as soon as possible in order to save human life?“ Conner conceded that American forces “would not have been jeopardized by such an order, if that is what you mean.“ > > Bland then asked, regarding Pershing’s notification to his armies merely that hostilities were to cease at 11 a.m., “Did the order leave it up to the individual commanders to quit firing before or to go ahead firing until 11 o’clock?“ “Yes,“ Conner answered. Bland then asked, “In view of the fact that we had ambitious generals in this Army, who were earnestly fighting our enemies and who hated to desist from doing so … would it have been best under the circumstances to have included in that order that hostilities should cease as soon as practicable before 11 o’clock?“ Conner answered firmly, “No sir, I do not.“ > > “How many generals did you lose on that day?“ Bland went on. “None,“ Conner replied. “How many colonels did you lose on that day?“ Conner: “I do not know how many were lost.“ “How many lieutenant colonels did you lose on that day?“ Conner: “I do not know the details of any of that.“ “I am convinced,“ Bland continued, “that on November 11 there was not any officer of very high rank taking any chance of losing his own life. …“ ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/5 "2023-11-11T16:39:08Z")
I have a book _The Last Fighter Pilot_. Which tells the tale of the last such USAAF pilot to be killed in WWII in the Pacific. As told by his formation leader that day. Sobering. Once the deal is done, it’s best if all sides inform all their forces ASAP and with as much reliability as possible, to adopt a purely defensive posture until the actual moment hostilities are agreed to cease. And there will always be folks who simply don’t get the word. More likely on the losing side, just due to their more screwed up & depleted military condition. Counterargument: In ice hockey the score is usually low, and games are often decided by just 1 point. And the commentators and score keepers make much of _the_ winning goal. Which by convention is always the last one. Which is bunk. In a game with a one-point margin it took every goal to win; none is more special than another. Or at least we can’t assume _a priori_ that the last one was the one that really mattered. Even in a more lopsided final score, say 6-2, which two of the excess three not needed to win are useless? Every wartime death is a tragedy and every wartime death affects the post-war situation. The ones right at the very beginning or the very end are just easier for us to spot by name and then emote over. Which is mostly (not entirely) bunk. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/6 "2023-11-11T16:42:08Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > _Take up our quarrel with the foe:_ > _To you from failing hands we throw_ I really feel we should beware of romanticising WW1 deaths. It seems to have been the most pointless war in history: no real matters of principle on either side, just continuation of politics by other means (to quote Clausewitz). The losers were the Poor Bloody Infantry on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/7 "2023-11-11T16:52:37Z")
We won’t forget Your selfless valour Your bold engagement An end to war Like those before Thank you to those Who fought for freedom And forged a peace Though brief and brittle We’ve learned so little In these dark times Your light shines brightly Your courage echoes Through time and thunder But makes me wonder Can we still learn To fight for freedom When rights are threatened? We promise, vets We won’t forget ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/8 "2023-11-11T16:53:29Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > The losers were the Poor Bloody Infantry on both sides. Not to mention the civilian populations, who were just trying to live their lives and likely wanted no part of war. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/9 "2023-11-11T17:01:30Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Not to mention the civilian populations, who were just trying to live their lives and likely wanted no part of war. Absolutely. But once politicians and generals get the bit between their teeth, it’s a downhill slide for the rest of us… ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/10 "2023-11-11T17:03:54Z")
There have been many pointless wars in history. While it is prudent not to romanticize war, the values of freedom and democracy our soldiers fought and died for have rarely been more important. We remember their sacrifice and example, and must now do so, so that our freedom and democracy are not devalued by, as you say, the continuation of politics by other means. Or even the mean. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/11 "2023-11-11T17:05:50Z")
The minute gun is going off. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/12 "2023-11-11T17:05:57Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > > > The losers were the Poor Bloody Infantry on both sides. > > Not to mention the civilian populations, who were just trying to live their lives and likely wanted no part of war. Not really. There were warmongers, foaming-at-the-mouth “patriots”, and so on. Bertrand Russell was thrown in prison; I believe some other war opponents were beaten/killed/deported/ostracized and suffered other consequences. So it is not like the civilian population was completely innocent. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/13 "2023-11-11T17:07:29Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Can we still learn > To fight for freedom > When rights are threatened? > We promise, vets > We won’t forget I guess we each have to decide what things are worth fighting for. “You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don’t ever count on having both at once.” In another perspective, from e e cummings: "i sing of Olaf glad and big whose warmest heart recoiled at war: a conscientious object-or his wellbelovéd colonel(trig westpointer most succinctly bred) took erring Olaf soon in hand; but–though an host of overjoyed noncoms(first knocking on the head him)do through icy waters roll that helplessness which others stroke with brushes recently employed anent this muddy toiletbowl, while kindred intellects evoke allegiance per blunt instruments– Olaf(being to all intents a corpse and wanting any rag upon what God unto him gave) responds,without getting annoyed “I will not kiss your fucking flag” straightway the silver bird looked grave (departing hurriedly to shave) but–though all kinds of officers (a yearning nation’s blueeyed pride) their passive prey did kick and curse until for wear their clarion voices and boots were much the worse, and egged the firstclassprivates on his rectum wickedly to tease by means of skilfully applied bayonets roasted hot with heat– Olaf(upon what were once knees) does almost ceaselessly repeat “there is some shit I will not eat” our president,being of which assertions duly notified threw the yellowsonofabitch into a dungeon,where he died Christ(of His mercy infinite) i pray to see;and Olaf,too preponderatingly because unless statistics lie he was more brave than me:more blond than you." ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/14 "2023-11-11T17:09:30Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > It seems to have been the most pointless war in history: no real matters of principle on either side Not quite. For the Allies, it was largely about resisting aggression and territorial aggrandizement; on the other side, settling scores and crushing ethnic opposition. A badly conducted war that was hugely wasteful of life, yes. But not fought for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/15 "2023-11-11T17:11:45Z")
Freedom isn’t free There’s a hefty fucking fee But if you don’t throw in Your buck-oh-five who will? Freedom costs a buck-oh-five. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/16 "2023-11-11T17:15:54Z")
Poor guy (last American killed in WWI…1 minute before the armistice): > **[https://preview.redd.it/4bljoi483qzb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=3dca0b380ca82ec9e338eb...](https://preview.redd.it/4bljoi483qzb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=3dca0b380ca82ec9e338ebf0ab5e7d80ece4c8be)** ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/17 "2023-11-11T17:17:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Not quite. > > For the Allies, it was largely about resisting aggression and territorial aggrandizement; on the other side, settling scores and crushing ethnic opposition. > > A badly conducted war that was hugely wasteful of life, yes. But not fought for nothing. Important to the politicians, I’m sure. But were any serious ethical issues at stake? ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/18 "2023-11-11T17:20:31Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > the values of freedom and democracy our soldiers fought and died for have rarely been more important. I totally agree. I want to live in a free democratic society, and there are some cases, like WW2, where I would have volunteered. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/19 "2023-11-11T17:21:00Z")
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks, Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge, Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs, And towards our distant rest began to trudge. Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots, But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind; Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots Of gas-shells dropping softly behind. Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!—An ecstasy of fumbling Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time, But someone still was yelling out and stumbling And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime.— Dim through the misty panes and thick green light, As under a green sea, I saw him drowning. In all my dreams before my helpless sight, He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning. If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace Behind the wagon that we flung him in, And watch the white eyes writhing in his face, His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin; If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs, Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,— My friend, you would not tell with such high zest To children ardent for some desperate glory, The old Lie: _Dulce et decorum est_ _Pro patria mori._ ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985/20 "2023-11-11T17:29:28Z")
Seven days earlier, a similar farce had been played out on the last day of Italy’s war. The previous July, an [an American regiment](https://armyhistory.org/viva-lamerica-the-332d-infantry-on-the-italian-front/#:~:text=The%20332nd%20Infantry%20Regiment%2C%20under,role%20in%20the%20final%20victory.) had been lent to them, fearing that once again the Germans would come their Austro-Hungarians’ rescue. In the event, the Germans had their own problems this time and the A-H Empire’s plans to strike back was doomed. The Italians and Austrians had agreed to a ceasefire but, unlike the Western Front, hadn’t set the frontiers. Therefore the Italians wanted one last charge to grab as much real estate as the clock allowed. November 4 saw the death of 24 year old Corporal Charles Kell, [unique in history as the only American killed by the Austro-Hungarian Empire](https://www.worldwar1centennial.org/index.php/profiles-of-us-service-in-wwi-italy/roll-of-honor-332nd-infantry-other-u-s-in-wwi-italy/332nd-inf-soldiers-killed-died-of-wounds/4808-332nd-kia-tagliamento-river-action.html) (seven others died in training), felled by at least one 8-millimeter round from either a Mannlicher M1895 rifle or a Schwarzlose medium machine gun. Kell was a participant in the Battle of Vittorio Veneto, a rare, overwhelming victory for Italy. They commemorated it by naming Via Veneto in Rome, which would become their most fashionable shopping district, inspiring film music by both [Nino Rota](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GOg1kXpYp3M&pp=ygUOaW4gdmlhIHZlbmV0byA%3D) and [Burt Bacharach](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOmbXFGKA4c&pp=ygUZdmlhIHZlbmV0byBhZnRlciB0aGUgZm94IA%3D%3D). (The Austrian field marshal, Archduke Joseph August, was still alive in 1960 when _La Dolce Vita_ premiered, but had sadly passed by the time _After the Fox_ hit the screen. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-guns-fell-silent-at-11/992985.md?page=2)