# THE HAGUE **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 24, 2000, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559 "2000-11-24T18:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/21 "2000-11-26T06:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by omni-not \* > I assume you are referring to _proper_ nouns, because French systematically puts an article (_le_ or _la_) before a common noun to distinguish the masculine and feminine forms. Well, I did say names, not nouns. > [@](#): > > _originally from Markxxx_ > Isn’t there a city in Oregon called The Dulles or something like that? Pay attention Markxxx. I mentioned The Dalles, OR up above. It’s a partial translation of _La Dalles_, the flagstones. Though I must admit that The Dulles is a more accurate name for the place… Another The place: The Pas, Manitoba. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/22 "2000-11-26T07:17:09Z")
When I lived in Berkeley, CA, I lived on “The Alameda”. It was listed in map indexes under “T”. Berkeley had a couple of other streets that started with “The”, but “The Alameda” actually is a fairly big street. There are numerous Spanish place names with “La”, “El”, etc. in them. Nobody seems to get too worked up over “Los Angeles”. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/23 "2000-11-26T07:24:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkinnyGuy \* > Addendum to the French using the article: They _do_ use it systematically. For instance la France, le Danmark, les Etas-Unis. Why some countries are considered male or female, now _that’s_ something I’d like to know. Let me correct a couple of the french spellings: Le Denmark, les Etats-Unis. As to how the gender is determined, I think in general the “words ending in a silent e are feminine” rule is followed. Of course, there are exceptions, e.g. le Zaïre. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/24 "2000-11-26T07:34:23Z")
The name of the Sudan in Arabic comes from _sûd_ ‘black people’, the plural of _aswad_, ‘black’. With the suffix _-ân_ it becomes a double plural in form – how odd. _al-_ is the definite article. How the French language determines the gender of countries may be a bit arbitrary sometimes. But it isn’t an issue in Arabic: the names of nations (and tribes) are _always_ feminine. ---
**Author:** ![SkinnyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@SkinnyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkinnyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/25 "2000-11-26T11:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > **Let me correct a couple of the french spellings: > Le Denmark, les Etats-Unis.** We were both wrong: le Danemark. 😉 (Damn those silent letters in French!) I remember from school (waaay back) my French teacher said that the male/female thing for country names had something to do with recently established or not. (Recently established = male.) And then she immediately gave Denmark as an exception. ---
**Author:** ![omni-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8dc957/32.png) [@omni-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omni-not)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/26 "2000-11-26T16:18:49Z")
**dtilque** : Sorry about that. You _did_ say names. As far as The Dalles is concerned, the French equivalent would be _Les_ Dalles. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/27 "2000-11-26T17:28:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SkinnyGuy \* > We were both wrong: le Danemark. You’ve just ruined my day. I’ve lived in the USA too long, and can’t spell in french anymore! ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/28 "2000-11-26T20:58:56Z")
Not to worry, **Arnold**. In your country alone, you’ve got three other languages to choose from 😃 Plus, you seem to handle English pretty adequately as well. Who needs French? ---
**Author:** ![nebuli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/0ea827/32.png) [@nebuli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nebuli)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/29 "2000-11-26T23:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Also, why does the Chersonese > have the the in front of it? Simply means “The Peninsula”-Chersonese is Greek for peninsula. I’ve seen Chersonese used to refer to the Gallipoli Peninsula, the Crimean Peninsula and the Malay Peninsula. > [@](#): > > Why ‘the Gambia’ The official name is Republic of the Gambia. It takes its name from The Gambia River. Look at a map of the nation- it is pretty much the Gambia River and about 10-15 miles on each bank. ---
**Author:** ![madmark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/898d66/32.png) [@madmark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmark)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2000, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/30 "2000-11-26T23:36:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Addendum to the French using the article: They _do_ use it systematically. For instance la France, le Danmark, les Etas-Unis. Why some countries are considered male or female, now _that’s_ something I’d like to know. > \*\* Why “la France” and all the others “le” or “les”? I think to remember that because France would be their mother country (female) while the others are either male or multiples … just my 2 cents … ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/31 "2000-11-27T21:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by bibliophage \* > > \*\*The _The_ is capitalized. For what it’s worth, I thought the Dutch form was **'s Gravenhage** (The Count’s Enclosure). Perhaps that’s the long form, and Den Haag is the short form? Let me think. Who do we know who might know this? Think, think, think … \*\* > > Absolutely spot on! I’m impressed. Enclosure… could be. I’d stick with the more literal “hedge”, though. > > Also: **'s Hertogenbosch** (“The Duke’s Forrest”) becomes **Den Bosch**. > > The _'s_ is short for _des_, an obsolete grammar “fall” (as in the German falls - is that the right term in English?) that implies possesion. In German, 4 “falls” still exist. Dutch only uses two actively (the first and fourth), whereas the second is only used sporadically in archaic expressions and city names. > > People who speak German will know what I mean. \*\* We say _case_ in English, for what Germans call a _fall_. Coldfire, can you remind me of the order in which the cases are supposed to be recited? Is the fourth case accusative or dative? And, since I studied a little Netherlandish at one time, could you give an example of a fourth case marking in the language? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/32 "2000-11-27T22:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Regarding Ukraine: when the U.S.S.R. broke up and Ukraine declared itself a country, they announced that they did not want the article used (in English, at least). At the time of the announcement, part of the reason given was that the article “the” indicated an inferior or subjugated position. (I’m not sure how that works since the Russian language does not even have articles–I don’t know whether Ukrainian has articles, or not–but I saw no reason to challenge Ukrainians on their preferences.) > > The Ukraine = dependent state of Russia or the U.S.S.R. > > Ukraine = current independent country. \*\* In this regard I’m not sure one country has the “right” to insist that speakers of another language use or not use an article. After all, the French say “La France”, but they don’t ask that we say “The France”. Dropping the article from country names seems to be an increasing trend. “Congo” is another example. To be frank, saying just “Congo” or “Ukraine” sounds simply wrong, like MIT linguist Noam Chomsky’s famous example **Furiously sleep dreams green colorless"** (as opposed to **Colorless green dreams sleep furiously** , which sounds grammatically correct to English speakers even though it is just as nonsensical as the first sentence). ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/33 "2000-11-27T23:06:38Z")
Does this have anything to do with Des Moines Des Plaines (sp) Both in Iowa, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2000, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/34 "2000-11-27T23:12:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > Who needs French? Any educated person, thank you very much. (See novels by Jane Austen.) ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/35 "2000-11-28T00:35:37Z")
Yes, I forgot to ask about the Crimea, and now I know it is because it is a peninsula, ie., the Crimea(n) Peninsula. Although they don’t say the Koala. And then there is The Borg, those awful cyborgs living in a huge cube that Seven of Eleven was freed from, thank goodness! ``` Since there was so much in this thread about case, I just found out that Finnish has five locative cases besides all its other cases, such as the usual genitive, etc. I always wondered why do they have us learn five cases in Latin when there is also a sixth one called the vocative and ends in e, as when you address someone. When Caesar addressed Brutus, he said, "Et tu, Brute," putting the e on. Or alternatively, since the dative and the ablative are almost always the same, why not just have a "dablative" case, eg., we have amicus, amici, amicO dative, amicum, amicO ablative. It works in the plural too, because the ablative and dative plurals are -is for neuter and masculine and feminine, which is all there is!Also, the genitive singular is the same as the nominative plural for all three genders in the first declension. I don't remember the other declensions. People also speak of learning the Latin or the Greek or the French, meaning the Latin LANGUAGE, etc. ``` ---
**Author:** ![don\_willard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@don\_willard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_willard)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/36 "2000-11-28T00:37:45Z")
wHOOPS, i JUST REALIZED the Borg are the Borg because they are the cyborgs! Thus answering my own question!!! ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/37 "2000-11-28T01:02:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > **We say _case_ in English, for what Germans call a _fall_. Coldfire, can you remind me of the order in which the cases are supposed to be recited? Is the fourth case accusative or dative? And, since I studied a little > Netherlandish at one time, could you give an example of > a fourth case marking in the language?** I’ll give it a go. OK, the order in which the German Cases should be recited. I will do this by example, as I do not fully understand the “accusative” (fourth, right?) and “dative” tags. **First Case** : _Der Wagen faehrt schnell_. (The car drives fast.) **Second Case** : _Das Rad des Wagens ist kaput_. (The cars tire is broken.) **Third Case** : _Ich bin mit dem Wagen gekommen_. (I came by car.) **Fourth Case** : _Ich habe den Wagen verkauft_. (I have sold the car.) I used a male noun (“der Wagen”) because it illustrates the cases best. However, conjugating female and neutral nouns is different. **The Fourth Case in Dutch** : While still in use, this case does not imply a grammar change anymore. This was the case in Middle Dutch, though. Now, it’s something like this schedule: **First Case** : _De auto rijdt snel_. (The car drives fast.) **Second Case** : _Het wiel des autos is kapot_. (The cars tire is broken.) This is extremely archaic, and this case is only used in sayings, legislation, proverbs, etc. Normally, one would say “_Het wiel van de auto is kapot_”, (The wheel of the car is broken). **Third Case** : non-existant in modern Dutch. **Fourth Case** : _Ik heb de auto verkocht_. (I have sold the car.) As you can see, no change to the noun and its surroundings 🙂 (Yes, for lack of a better word. What does one call “the”, “a”, “and”?) Whew. I hope that helps a bit. Let’s hope all the tags work. Thank goodness I’m a mod now. I can edit them to perfection 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2000, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559/38 "2000-11-28T16:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Coldfire \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > > **We say _case_ in English, for what Germans call a _fall_. Coldfire, can you remind me of the order in which the cases are supposed to be recited? Is the fourth case accusative or dative? And, since I studied a little > > Netherlandish at one time, could you give an example of > > a fourth case marking in the language?** > > I’ll give it a go. > > OK, the order in which the German Cases should be recited. I will do this by example, as I do not fully understand the “accusative” (fourth, right?) and “dative” tags. > > **First Case** : _Der Wagen faehrt schnell_. (The car drives fast.) > **Second Case** : _Das Rad des Wagens ist kaput_. (The cars tire is broken.) > **Third Case** : _Ich bin mit dem Wagen gekommen_. (I came by car.) > **Fourth Case** : _Ich habe den Wagen verkauft_. (I have sold the car.) > > I used a male noun (“der Wagen”) because it illustrates the cases best. However, conjugating female and neutral nouns is different. > > **The Fourth Case in Dutch** : > While still in use, this case does not imply a grammar change anymore. This was the case in Middle Dutch, though. > Now, it’s something like this schedule: > > **First Case** : _De auto rijdt snel_. (The car drives fast.) > **Second Case** : _Het wiel des autos is kapot_. (The cars tire is broken.) This is extremely archaic, and this case is only used in sayings, legislation, proverbs, etc. Normally, one would say “_Het wiel van de auto is kapot_”, (The wheel of the car is broken). > **Third Case** : non-existant in modern Dutch. > **Fourth Case** : _Ik heb de auto verkocht_. (I have sold the car.) As you can see, no change to the noun and its surroundings 🙂 (Yes, for lack of a better word. What does one call “the”, “a”, “and”?) > > Whew. I hope that helps a bit. Let’s hope all the tags work. Thank goodness I’m a mod now. I can edit them to perfection 😃 \*\* Thanks, Fire. I should point out that by ‘marking’ I meant a change in the noun itself, and not merely the article or context. To the best of my memory German marks the fourth case (accusative) only for words such as _Junge_ and _Mensch_: [ul] [li]Nominative: der Junge, der Mensch[/li][li]Genitive : des Jung **ens** , des Mensch **ens** [/li][li]Dative : dem Jung **en** , dem Mensch **en** [/li][li]Accusative: den Jung **en** , den Mensch **en** [/li][/ul] A far greater number of German nouns, mostly masculine and neuter, have dative marking, but no accusative marking. However, I believe that even the dative marking is obsolescent, except in poetic or very formal situations: [ul] [li]Nom: der Freund, das Land[/li][li]Gen: des Frend **es** , des Land **es** [/li][li]Dat: dem Freund **e** , dem Land **e** [/li][li]Acc: den Freund, das Land[/li] If there are any native German speakers out there, could you help clear this up? Is the dative marking in words like _Freunde_ above disappearing? My impression was that it is becoming obsolete, but my memories on the subject are also obsolescent. [/ul] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hague/42559.md?page=1)