# The Haitan Creole language had everything revitalized so why didn't it revive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 24, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051 "2023-08-24T20:59:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2023, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/61 "2023-09-02T17:43:11Z")
Here you go - knock yourself out. > **[Endangered language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_language)** > > An endangered language or moribund language is a language that is at risk of disappearing as its speakers die out or shift to speaking other languages. Language loss occurs when the language has no more native speakers and becomes a "dead language". If no one can speak the language at all, it becomes an "extinct language". A dead language may still be studied through recordings or writings, but it is still dead or extinct unless there are fluent speakers. Although languages have always beco Langu... ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2023, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/62 "2023-09-03T00:08:50Z")
What if a language was dying, but [the last two speakers refused to speak to each other?](https://www.k-international.com/blog/last-two-speakers-of-dying-language-wont-speak/#:~:text=When%20Spanish%20became%20the%20language,to%20speak%20to%20each%20other.) I was surprised that Google could pull that up. I couldn’t remember the language’s name or the location. Although there is an article saying that they made up and are speaking to each other now. (The language is _Ayapaneco_.) ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/63 "2023-09-24T01:35:36Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > But the public education for the common people, like just about everything public for the common people in Haiti, is just horribly poor when it exists at all. You mean education in Haitian Creole? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/64 "2023-09-24T05:03:29Z")
> [@Jagraze1](#): > > You mean education in Haitian Creole? Education of any kind. Haiti has the weakest educational system in the Western Hemisphere. To quote the Wikipedia article on the Haitian education system: > [@](#): > > The **Haitian Educational System** yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-cp-3) Haiti’s [literacy rate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_rate) of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-The_World_Factbook-1) The country faces shortages in educational supplies and qualified [teachers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachers). The rural population is less educated than the urban.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-cp-3) The [2010 Haiti earthquake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Haiti_earthquake) exacerbated the already constrained parameters on Haiti’s educational system by destroying infrastructure and displacing 50–90% of the students, depending on locale. > [@](#): > > Though the Constitution requires that a public education be offered free to all people,[[32]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-32) the [Haitian government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_government) has been unable to fulfill this obligation.[[33]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-33) It spends about 10% of the federal budget on the country’s elementary and secondary schools.[[34]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-34) Out of the 67% enrollment rate for elementary school, 70% continue on to the third grade.[[35]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-35) 21.5% of the [population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population), age 5 and older, receive a secondary level education and 1.1% at the [university](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University) level (1.4% for men compared to 0.7% for women).[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-strategy-36) Nearly 33% of children between the ages of 6 and 12 (500,000 children) do not attend school, and this percentage climbs to 40% for children ages 5 to 15 which accounts for approximately one million children.[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-strategy-36) The [dropout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropping_out) rate is particularly high at 29% in the first basic cycle.[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-strategy-36) Close to 60% of children drop out of school before receiving their primary education certificate.[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-strategy-36) Of the two million children enrolled in the basic level, 56% are at the required age for the first cycle (ages 6 to 11).[[36]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-strategy-36) While the mandated age for entering grade 1 is 6, the actual [mean](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean) age is nearly 10, and [students](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students) in grade 6 are on average almost 16, which is 5 years older than expected.[[31]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-SM-31) 83% of those ages 6–14 attended school in 2005. These rates are much lower for the poor.[[31]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti#cite_note-SM-31) > **[Education in Haiti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Haiti)** > > The Haitian Educational System yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere. Haiti's literacy rate of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries. The country faces shortages in educational supplies and qualified teachers. The rural population is less educated than the urban. The 2010 Haiti earthquake exacerbated the already constrained parameters on Haiti's educationa Intern... ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/65 "2023-09-24T21:33:07Z")
Does this mean that, education in both Haitian Creole and French is poor? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/66 "2023-09-24T21:38:22Z")
Probably? As was noted previously in this thread, to the extent that the education system in Haiti works at all, it’s probably working for the upper class. Education in Haiti, particularly for the upper classes, is likely to largely be in French, as has also already been pointed out. As the Wikipedia article I linked to notes, and has also been pointed out upthread, the lower class in Haiti is largely under-educated (if they are educated at all). Only 22% of Haitians receive a secondary (i.e., high school) education, and only 1% receive a university-level education; I will guarantee you that the majority of those Haitians are in the upper classes. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/67 "2023-09-24T22:49:29Z")
According to UNESCO, Creole is listed “potentially vulnerable” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/68 "2023-09-24T22:53:41Z")
@Jagraze1: Yes, as you stated in an earlier post in your own thread here, UNESCO lists it as “potentially vulnerable.” Not sure why you’re restating it again – we get it, and restating it doesn’t add anything to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2023, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/69 "2023-09-24T23:53:19Z")
Just a note, since we’re talking about language: “potentially” means something, and it doesn’t mean “actually.” “Vulnerable” also means something. Together, these words mean that the languages are, well, possibly in a weak position, which isn’t actually saying ANYTHING about them. (They seem to have a definition for “vulnerable,” but I couldn’t find one for “potentially vulnerable.”) Other languages UNESCO has in this category are Afrikaans, American Sign Language, Azerbaijani, and a whole host of other languages that are just fine. Wikipedia says there are 12 million native speakers of Haitian Creole, which sounds like enough to make it for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/70 "2023-09-25T06:07:48Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Wikipedia says there are 12 million native speakers of Haitian Creole, which sounds like enough to make it for a while. There also are [works of literature in Haitian Creole.](https://guides.loc.gov/haiti-reimagined/haitian-creole/books) There are two issues here, ISTM: the language-survival issue and the human-rights issue. Is Haitian Creole likely to go extinct any time soon, given that it’s the native language (and in many cases the only fluent language) of millions of people? No. Is it fair or acceptable that non-elite Haitian Creole speakers don’t have decent educational opportunities in any language, and that they are often punished for speaking their native language in French-medium educational environments? No. Is there any formal measure that the United States in its official capacity as a sovereign nation can or should undertake to improve either of those outcomes? Not really. We can directly provide support to Haitian Creole speakers and writers in the Haitian diaspora, e.g., with multilingual materials including Haitian Creole for immigrants from Haiti. And we can continue to fund humanitarian efforts through organizations like USAID. But none of that can or should replace what the Haitian government itself ought to be doing for its people. And if you think the US should try to fix that by just overthrowing the Haitian government… well, look [how well a government coup in Haiti worked out last time.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27état) Let’s not go there. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/71 "2023-09-25T13:32:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > We can directly provide support to Haitian Creole speakers and writers in the Haitian diaspora, e.g., with multilingual materials including Haitian Creole for immigrants from Haiti. Here in Miami signs and government paperwork commonly do have English, Spanish, and Kreyol. It’s not universal by any stretch, but it’s also common enough to be unremarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/72 "2023-09-25T13:40:06Z")
Yes but there is a level after called “safe” which includes languages like Italian and Spanish ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/73 "2023-09-25T15:27:00Z")
Humanity will eventually speak just one language. In that sense, all languages but that one are already doomed today. The difference is entirely how many centuries or millenia from now the last of the others will die off. All of these things are relative. You seem to have a very difficult time understanding “relative” and want things to be absolute instead. Nearly nothing in human behavior or society is absolute. Never was, isn’t now, and never will be. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/74 "2023-09-25T15:51:00Z")
But Spanish is a lot safer than Italian. And some of the Italian dialects are distinctly moribund. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/75 "2023-09-26T01:54:46Z")
Aren’t Spanihs and Italian eqaully safe ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/76 "2023-09-26T02:34:41Z")
No. Italian is only spoken as a national language in Italy itself, plus a few small countries within the peninsula or quite nearby (e.g. Malta). Spanish is the national language of dozens of countries, and the number of Spanish speakers is orders of magnitude larger than Italian speakers, as both first and second languages. Italian is in good health and in no danger of going anywhere: Italy is a decent-sized country and its language is prestigious, and critical for some of the fine arts. It’s just that Spanish is much _more_ healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/77 "2023-09-26T02:47:23Z")
According to Statistics, Italain has 85m speakers and is the official language of Croatia, Slovenia, Italy, Switzerland and is the 20th most spoken world language. There is no reason to think, the Italian language is going to die out even if it is not as healthy as Spanish. But I can see where you are getting ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/78 "2023-09-26T02:50:40Z")
It is not the official language of Croatia, Slovenia, or Switzerland—it has official status to varying degrees in parts of those countries. But yes, you take my point. Italian isn’t going anywhere, but “heathy” isn’t really a binary so much as a scale. ---
**Author:** ![Jagraze1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jagraze1/32/14870_2.png) [@Jagraze1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jagraze1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/79 "2023-09-26T03:01:32Z")
Note: I’m not trying to disagree with you, just sharing my thoughts ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2023, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051/80 "2023-09-26T03:07:22Z")
No worries at all! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-haitan-creole-language-had-everything-revitalized-so-why-didnt-it-revive/989051.md?page=5)