# The Hajj **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 8, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085 "2001-06-08T18:23:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/1 "2001-06-08T18:23:56Z")
Reference this column: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010608.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010608.html) Just in case anyone’s wondering what the Embassy of Saudi Arabia (in Washington, DC) has to say about getting to Mecca. In Arabic [http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel\_info/HajjRegArabic.htm](http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel_info/HajjRegArabic.htm) In English [http://www.saudiembassy.net/hajj/regulations-1421.htm](http://www.saudiembassy.net/hajj/regulations-1421.htm) ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2001, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/2 "2001-06-08T22:17:47Z")
Regarding the original question (Have any infidels made the pilgrimage to Mecca), I seem to remember that Spike Lee made the Hajj preparatory to making the movie **Malcolm X**. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/3 "2001-06-09T12:50:49Z")
Well, good, I don’t have to start a whole thread for this question. Is this column referring specifically to people making the pilgrimage and visiting the tomb, etc., or to non-Muslims visiting the whole city of Mecca itself? Monty’s consular information link deals only with people travelling specifically on the pilgrimage, not to Joe Blow from Kokomo who wants to open up some new territory for his car wash franchises. [http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html](http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html) > [@](#): > > Travel to Makkah (Mecca) and Medina, the cities where the two holiest mosques of Islam are located, is forbidden to non-Muslims. How do they keep non-Muslims _out_ of Mecca? I find it difficult to believe that some enterprising non-Muslim journalist hasn’t managed to figure out a way to get in. Five minutes with Google shows that there are Web pages with hotel reservations in Mecca, there are tour groups that “do” Mecca, there are airlines that fly to Mecca. So how would they keep you out? Do the tour groups, charter flights, and hotels have a screening process, or what? Couldn’t you just, well, _lie_? [http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc\_company\_intan.htm](http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc_company_intan.htm) > [@](#): > > Another successful area is its operation of pilgrimage tour Mecca as well as other countries in Saudi Arabia. Its Umrah tours cover not only Saudi Arabia but also nearby countries including Jordan, Egypt and Oman. It is also one of the Government-approved agencies to handle pilgrims for the annual Haj. Couldn’t you just sign up, and show up? Are they going to ask you if you’re Muslim? If you make a reservation at the Hyatt Makkah, and show up at the front desk, are they going to inquire as to your religion? [http://hotelroomsplus.com/saudi-arabia/mecca%20makkah.htm](http://hotelroomsplus.com/saudi-arabia/mecca%20makkah.htm) If you went to Hat Yai Airport in Thailand, and got on a flight to Mecca, at what point in the proceedings would someone ask you what religion you are? Again, couldn’t you just lie? [http://www.airportthai.or.th/airportnew/hatyai/html/](http://www.airportthai.or.th/airportnew/hatyai/html/) > [@](#): > > Located in Songkhla Province, popularly dubbed the trading center of the South, Hat Yai International Airport has played a key role in providing services to thousands of Muslims making the pilgrimage to Mecca each year. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/4 "2001-06-09T15:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > Well, good, I don’t have to start a whole thread for this question. Pleased to help. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Is this column referring specifically to people making the pilgrimage and visiting the tomb, etc., or to non-Muslims visiting the whole city of Mecca itself? The column provided the answer to a question about non-muslims getting into the two forbidden cities; however, Saudi Arabia does have some unique entry requirements. So, my guess is it’s okay to digress a tad into those in this thread since the Saudi government says it’s Islam that serves as the basis for their entire government. > [@](#): > > Monty’s consular information link deals only with people travelling specifically on the pilgrimage, Those two links are renewed annually (actually - each Islamic year) by the Saudi Embassy because to travel on the Hajj, one must have a Hajj visa. And for foreign Muslim residents in the Kingdom, they are permitted to make the Hajj only once every five years. Islamic years, of course. > [@](#): > > not to Joe Blow from Kokomo who wants to open up some new territory for his car wash franchises. There are other types of visas, all of which require an in-country (or Saudi government-approved out-country) sponsoring individual or organization. > [@](#): > > [http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html](http://travel.state.gov/saudi.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > Travel to Makkah (Mecca) and Medina, the cities where the two holiest mosques of Islam are located, is forbidden to non-Muslims. > > How do they keep non-Muslims _out_ of Mecca? Here’s the info from that site: > [@](#): > > Foreign residents traveling within the Kingdom, even between towns in the same province, carry travel letters issued by employers and authenticated by an immigration official or a Chamber of Commerce office. Police at all airports and dozens of roadblocks routinely arrest and imprison violators. You’ll notice that there are roadblocks staffed by the police, and that apparently there’s an arrivals check at the airports (which, btw, are not located in the two prohibited cities). It shouldn’t take too much to verify one’s religion at that point, as the visa application requires one to state that. And let’s not forget that the penalty for renouncing al-Islam, if one’s a Muslim in Saudi Arabia, is death, IIRC. The visa application: [http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel\_info/Travel00.htm](http://www.saudiembassy.net/travel_info/Travel00.htm) (click on Visa Information and Application and then click on the link brought up). > [@](#): > > I find it difficult to believe that some enterprising non-Muslim journalist hasn’t managed to figure out a way to get in. Five minutes with Google shows that there are Web pages with hotel reservations in Mecca, there are tour groups that “do” Mecca, there are airlines that fly to Mecca. So how would they keep you out? Do the tour groups, charter flights, and hotels have a screening process, or what? Couldn’t you just, well, _lie_? Yes, to all of the above. However, see my previous comment. [http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc\_company\_intan.htm](http://www.bruneiwbc.com/wbc_company_intan.htm) > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Another successful area is its operation of pilgrimage tour Mecca as well as other countries in Saudi Arabia. Its Umrah tours cover not only Saudi Arabia but also nearby countries including Jordan, Egypt and Oman. It is also one of the Government-approved agencies to handle pilgrims for the annual Haj. > > Couldn’t you just sign up, and show up? Are they going to ask you if you’re Muslim? Yes, they’re definitely going to ask you that. Especially because the Saudi government requires that information prior to granting a visa. > [@](#): > > If you make a reservation at the Hyatt Makkah, and show up at the front desk, are they going to inquire as to your religion? The hotel’s not going to have to because the Saudi government already did, at least once, perhaps even twice (when you completed the visa application and when you got screened on arrival). > [@](#): > > If you went to Hat Yai Airport in Thailand, and got on a flight to Mecca, at what point in the proceedings would someone ask you what religion you are? Again, couldn’t you just lie? Long before you got on the airplane. The airline’s not going to board you without a visa and you have to provide the information to get a visa. Airlines which knowingly transport people without a required visa also get penalized by the offended government. Another interesting note: If you’re a Christian woman, not Saudi Arabian, and marry a Saudi Arabian citizen, and then have a child, that child is considered by Saudi law both a Saudi citizen and a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/5 "2001-06-09T19:36:00Z")
[[Another interesting note: If you’re a Christian woman, not Saudi Arabian, and marry a Saudi Arabian citizen, and then have a child, that child is considered by Saudi law both a Saudi citizen and a Muslim.]] And women, Muslim or not, are not allowed to make the Hajj. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/6 "2001-06-09T19:54:50Z")
> [@](#): > > [hajj](http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=39629&tocid=0): _also spelled Hadjdj, or Hadj_, in Islam, the pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia, which every adult Muslim of either sex must make at least once in his or her lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2001, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/7 "2001-06-09T20:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JillGat \* > And women, Muslim or not, are not allowed to make the Hajj. From the 2nd link I provided above: > [@](#): > > 1. Mahram. All ladies are required to travel for Hajj with a Mahram. Proof of the relationship of the Mahram must be submitted. The accompanying Mahram will not be allowed to leave the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia on his own unless she is accompanied by him. > > [ul]As an exception to paragraph (10) above, a lady over the age of forty five (45) can travel without a Mahram with an organized group. She must, however, submit a no objection letter from her husband, son or brother, authorizing her to travel for Hajj with the named group. Such letter should be notarized by a notary public.[/ul] ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/8 "2001-06-11T00:57:06Z")
As I’ve mentioned before on the SDMB, Sir Richard Francs Burton is a fave of mine. I’ve read his **Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to Mecca and al-Medina** several times over. 1. In his as-usual exhaustive appendix he lists books by non-Muslim travelers who made the trip before him, and he reproduces in its entirety the account of a European taken as a slave on the Hajj. 2. Burton may have been ambiguous about his own religious status, but I suspect he was more an agnostic who particpated in religious ceremonies than a believer in any orthodoxy. At the end of Pilgrimage he exhorts readers to make the hajj n their own, without any talk of converting. 3. Years laer, after Burton had prposed to his future wife, but before she accepted (things took longer in those days, I guess), he made pilgrimage to Salt Lake City. Burton seems to have made a hobby of collecting “forbidden” cities having been to Mecca, Medina, and Harar. SLC wasn’t in the same class, but there is a rumor – one of those things that ought to be true, if they aren’t – that when he greeted Brigham Young, Young replied “I understand you’ve done something of the sort before.” (This isn’t supported by Burton’s own book , **The City of the Saints**.) ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/9 "2001-06-11T01:46:51Z")
All the books I have on Islam indicate that women do make the hajj. There are separate quarters for the sexes, separate dress codes, and proscriptions against sexual intercourse while on the pilgrimage. – Beruang ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/10 "2001-06-11T11:48:39Z")
My earlier post was made from memory. I’ve dug out my two-volume Dover copy of “Pilgrimage” 1. Burton makes several references to women making the Hajj. I’m quite certain that my other books on Islam talk about women making the Pilgrimage, as well. 2. He actually reprints several of the accounts of previous non-Muslims making the Hajj =-- Lodovico Martema in 1503, Joseph Pitts in 1680, and Giovanni Finati some time after that. At the start of his book he mentions three others – the French Viscount Escatrac de Lanture, the Swedish (!) consul at Cairo, M. Bertolucci, and Dr. George A. Wallin of Finland. 3. I can’t find his suggestion that other Europeans perform the journey, but I distinctly recall it being in there. 4. Regarding Spike Lee’s movie **X**. I never heard that Lee himself made the Pilgrimage, and it was my understanding that the actors and cameramen who did were themselves Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/11 "2001-06-11T13:22:23Z")
Golly. ☹ Well, thank you, Monty, that was what I wanted to know. Roadblocks? Jeepers. [_going to light candles to the memory of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, et al_] And, not to tell the Saudis how to run their country or anything, but don’t they realize they’re missing out on billions in tourist revenue? Harry and Martha from Cleveland, not to mention Joe Blow from Kokomo, would love to see this, and they’d promise to be real respectful. Saudi Arabia may not need billions in tourist revenue, but, you know, guys, the oil won’t last forever. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/12 "2001-06-11T13:55:35Z")
DDG, The Saudi Government (read: The al-Saud family) are pretty sensitive about being seen by other muslims as not exactly muslims since the al-Sauds are Wahabis and not Sunni or Shi’ite. Regarding outsiders being respective of the muslims laws: one individual in Carrier Air Wing Five (when I was assigned to it) thought it was a good idea to preach the Gospel in Abu Dhabi right around lunch time in a large square downtown. Lucky for him, the US Navy’s Shore Patrol got him before the locals did. The Saudi government walks a very thin tightrope on the issues of Mecca and Medina. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/13 "2001-06-11T14:13:08Z")
\<\< And, not to tell the Saudis how to run their country or anything, but don’t they realize they’re missing out on billions in tourist revenue? \>\> Tourist revenues? Peanuts! You forget, the Saudis are sitting on riches beyond measure from oil. They can afford to scoff at tourists. While it might be possible for a non-Muslim to sneak into a hajj tour (perhaps with the compliance of the tour guide), that person would need to be well versed in Islam (a simple mistake, like in diet or dress, would reveal all). And the penalties for being caught – well, Islam is not well known for being a religion of forgiveness and understanding. And the Saudis have a very interesting judicial system – cutting off the hands of a thief, for instance. So the stakes would be very high, for an unscrupulous reporter (I guess that’s probably redundant, eh?) ---
**Author:** ![Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrison_s_Lament)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/14 "2001-06-11T14:27:11Z")
Come on! Of course women make the Hajj, I’ve even met some American women that made it several times! I realize someone answered this, but I really don’t appreciate people making claims like that on the basis of some news reports from Afghanistan. I haven’t read the entire thread, but I’d like to add something if no one else has. The ingrown town of Jeddah is sometimes mistaken for Mecca proper, and anyone can go in and out of Jeddah as they please. The airport is located there, so one can’t actually fly in without going into “the Jeddah part of Mecca”. As far as the tourism thing goes, there’s just no space for them during the Hajj. There are even (newly imposed) limits on how many times one can go. The number of muslims has multiplied while Mecca is still the same size, so keeping people who shouldn’t be there out is done to make sure devout muslims can themselves attend. — G. Raven ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/15 "2001-06-11T14:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*DDG, > > The Saudi Government (read: The al-Saud family) are pretty sensitive about being seen by other muslims as not exactly muslims since the al-Sauds are Wahabis and not Sunni or Shi’ite. \*\* Not to nitpick, but the al-Sauds are Sunni. Wahabi is one of the Sunni schools of jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/16 "2001-06-12T01:12:33Z")
Yes, it might be nice in a Cecil thread to actually make statements backed by actual fact, preferably with some citation to a factual reference. ---
**Author:** ![Beruang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@Beruang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beruang)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/17 "2001-06-12T13:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\*And the penalties for being caught – well, Islam is not well known for being a religion of forgiveness and understanding. And the Saudis have a very interesting judicial system – cutting off the hands of a thief, for instance. So the stakes would be very high, for an unscrupulous reporter (I guess that’s probably redundant, eh?) \*\* Well, I know a few Muslims who might challenge that description of their faith. Let us not confuse the whole of Islam with the fundamentalist “interpretation” imposed by certain governments whose primary concern is creating and holding power. (Or, in the case of the Sauds, to “proving” their Islamic credentials to their critics.) The Taliban and other such extremist groups bear a relationship to the rest of Islam not too dissimilar to the relationship of the Salem witch trials to the rest of Christianity. Certainly, there are things in Islam which a Christian, or a Western secularist, would find troubling. But then, there are things in the West that Muslims find troubling. It all makes for better pudding. – Beruang ---
**Author:** ![Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Morrison\_s\_Lament](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morrison_s_Lament)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2001, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hajj/68085/18 "2001-06-13T17:24:22Z")
Now, please don’t anyone take this the wrong way, but I just have to enquire about the issue of JillGat’s eronious post. I’ve been seeing her columns and posts since I first arrived and they are all extremely well researched, unbiased and basically very good scholarly work on a wide variety of subjects. Of course, we all make mistakes (mostly me though :D), but I am interested in knowing where you got your ideas about the Hajj, specifically the right of females to parttake. I was rather shocked to see your name next to such blatant misinformation, since I usually take the SD Staff’s words to be as infallable as Cecil’s own. So, what happened Jill? Did you kick who’s ever ass deserved it for telling you that? 😃 — G. Raven