# The handicap stall argument-clear and concise **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809 "2011-06-25T06:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/41 "2011-06-25T21:17:51Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > So what if there were no “people in wheelchairs” or other “access-compromised” folks out there in the world? What if everyone out and about in the functioning world were able-bodied? What if they were all like you? Then there would never be any “handicap stalls” in these bathrooms ever in the first place. Every single stall would be the “awful, inconvenient, tight, cramped” regular stalls. What would you do then? Use the regular stalls all the time. It’s only due to the fact that there ARE people in wheelchairs and people with other disabilities that are part of the working/functioning world that has made those “big, convenient” stalls a possibility for you, the able-bodied, to be able to enjoy at all. And I know everyone thinks I have a “major chip on my shoulder” and what not, but that’s not the case. Every single other person in a wheelchair that I know feels EXACTLY the same way as I do regarding this issue. I merely am willing to stick my neck out there and speak up. And can you really blame others for not wanting to go through what I go through with this? It’s not just here, it’s everywhere. Alot of people (by no means everyone though) simply can’t (or more likely don’t WANT) to see the situation for what it really is. And what if they did let you keep your wheelchair at the table, but then it spontaneously combusted. In this scenario, you’d still be the one left behind. Wait, sorry, wrong thread. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/42 "2011-06-25T21:21:49Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Huge difference from “exclusive use”. And see my previous post from before the one you just quoted. And who determines this “probability” you talk about? That was from your OP in this thread there is no other post before that. Simple empirical observation. I am 53 years old. I have never, ever seen anyone waiting to use the handicapped stall in a public multi-stall bathroom. I am sure the scenario exists, but through a half century of using public bathrooms and not seeing this I am asserting there is very low real world probability of this scenario occurring in everyday use of the public bathrooms I frequent. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/43 "2011-06-25T21:28:37Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Ok, let me revise my argument. I think some good points were made. Knock me over with a feather. > [@](#): > > In the settings such as office settings where it is known that no one will need priority of that stall, then yes, my request would be silly. Perhaps a blanket statement is not appropriate. Consider it applicable to 1) work setting where a disabled person(s) is employed 2) public establishments which serve the general public In theory, it sounds fine. In practice, people are still going to use it, because experience shows that the chance is very small that there will be a need to keep it in reserve as a “last resort”. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/44 "2011-06-25T21:39:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Me, too - can’t stand higher seats. I swear, there have been a couple where when I’m seated my feet don’t reach the floor. You and me **Broomie** you and me. I never use the HC stall unless there is no other choice (restaurant last weekend only 1 stall) And count me in as never having seen an wheelchair bound person having to wait for a stall. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/45 "2011-06-25T21:45:12Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > You and me **Broomie** you and me. I never use the HC stall unless there is no other choice (restaurant last weekend only 1 stall) > And count me in as never having seen an wheelchair bound person having to wait for a stall. The world is much more than what you see. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/46 "2011-06-25T21:47:01Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > Knock me over with a feather. > > In theory, it sounds fine. In practice, people are still going to use it, because experience shows that the chance is very small that there will be a need to keep it in reserve as a “last resort”. I’m simply trying to advance the theory. Have more people agree with the theory. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/47 "2011-06-25T21:53:11Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I’m simply trying to advance the theory. Have more people agree with the theory. I’m pretty sure most people agree with the theory. It’s your methods of enforcement they have an issue with. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/48 "2011-06-25T22:04:21Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > I’m pretty sure most people agree with the theory. It’s your methods of enforcement they have an issue with. Methods of enforcement? When did I say anything about that? And actually ALOT of people do not agree with this theory. Even people here on this board. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/49 "2011-06-25T22:22:43Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Methods of enforcement? When did I say anything about that? And actually ALOT of people do not agree with this theory. Even people here on this board. No, they agree it is a good idea **IN THEORY**. They don’t think it is a good practical idea, and that is what I meant by enforcement. You want everyone to leave it open unless there is no choice, and people that live in the real world know that it ain’t gonna happen, no matter how much you, I, or any other person wishes it to happen. Talking about things makes people feel good. Taking action is rarely done. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/50 "2011-06-25T22:32:41Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > No, they agree it is a good idea **IN THEORY**. They don’t think it is a good practical idea, and that is what I meant by enforcement. You want everyone to leave it open unless there is no choice, and people that live in the real world know that it ain’t gonna happen, no matter how much you, I, or any other person wishes it to happen. > > Talking about things makes people feel good. Taking action is rarely done. Ok, SOME may agree it’s only good in theory but some have also clearly expressed how inherently unfair such a concept is to the able-bodied who prefer the roominess of the handicap stall. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/51 "2011-06-25T22:38:36Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Ok, SOME may agree it’s only good in theory but some have also clearly expressed how inherently unfair such a concept is to the able-bodied who prefer the roominess of the handicap stall. I’m sure even they (or most of them) if they were honest would still admit it is a good theory. They are just saying that they prefer the larger stalls because **in practice** there is no reason to not use it (in most cases). Hell, even I prefer to use them (in the rare instances I need to–I prefer not to take a shit while out unless I have to) and will/do even if other stalls are empty. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/52 "2011-06-25T22:43:57Z")
Given the scenario of a long line of people waiting for a toilet and no obviously disabled person in sight, if the handicap accessible stall is the only one open when I get to the front of the line and I choose to keep waiting, the person behind me is going to take it. So my little sacrifice or reasonable display of citizenship or whatever you want to call it, will inconvenience me with zero chance of helping a disabled person. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/53 "2011-06-25T22:46:39Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > Given the scenario of a long line of people waiting for a toilet and no obviously disabled person in sight, if the handicap accessible stall is the only one open when I get to the front of the line and I choose to keep waiting, the person behind me is going to take it. So my little sacrifice or reasonable display of citizenship or whatever you want to call it, will inconvenience me with zero chance of helping a disabled person. ONCE a frigginGAIN we got us a poster who didn’t read the OP. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/54 "2011-06-25T22:47:53Z")
> [@xoferew](#): > > Given the scenario of a long line of people waiting for a toilet and no obviously disabled person in sight, if the handicap accessible stall is the only one open when I get to the front of the line and I choose to keep waiting, the person behind me is going to take it. So my little sacrifice or reasonable display of citizenship or whatever you want to call it, will inconvenience me with zero chance of helping a disabled person. To be fair to Jamie, he said he has no problem with this. He does want you to only use it if it is the only choiice. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/55 "2011-06-25T22:52:29Z")
> [@srzss05](#): > > I’m sure even they (or most of them) if they were honest would still admit it is a good theory. They are just saying that they prefer the larger stalls because **in practice** there is no reason to not use it (in most cases). Hell, even I prefer to use them (in the rare instances I need to–I prefer not to take a shit while out unless I have to) and will/do even if other stalls are empty. And don’t get me wrong here, this mentality extends to taking a piss in a handicap stall as well. Myriad times I have been in THAT situation as well, waiting, in an otherwise empty bathroom, while a guy stood there pissing inside the handicap stall. And when I get time, I’ll find one or two of the posts I’m referring to where they discuss the “unfairness” of my proposal. You can make up your own mind. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/56 "2011-06-25T22:56:34Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > And when I get time, I’ll find one or two of the posts I’m referring to where they discuss the “unfairness” of my proposal. You can make up your own mind. You really don’t have to bother, as I already read them. They most likely still agree that it is a good idea, but don’t think it is a real problem. That’s my take on it anyway; you obviously disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Silvorange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Silvorange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silvorange)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/57 "2011-06-25T23:17:27Z")
Part of the problem is that, in too many places, all of the stalls are too small. The regular ones are ridiculous (the toilet paper dispenser should not be in my lap) and the handicapped accessible ones are not big enough for someone to close the door behind their wheelchair. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/58 "2011-06-25T23:19:44Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > ONCE a frigginGAIN we got us a poster who didn’t read the OP. :dubious: Yes, I read it. I wasn’t trying to agree with or disagree with your position, just comment on an issue that plays into deciding whether or not to use the handicapped stall. Sorry if that’s too off-topic for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/59 "2011-06-25T23:27:21Z")
> [@Silvorange](#): > > Part of the problem is that, in too many places, all of the stalls are too small. The regular ones are ridiculous (the toilet paper dispenser should not be in my lap) and the handicapped accessible ones are not big enough for someone to close the door behind their wheelchair. Doors on HA stalls generally open outward. Personally, I prefer the regular stalls. (Or in the case of my workplace, the slightly-smaller-than-regular stall.) HA stalls make me feel ‘exposed’. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/60 "2011-06-26T01:18:33Z")
If you think this through, there’s realistically very little chance this would ever work - it’s sort of a self-defeating proposition. In the busy restrooms, the HA stalls are going to be in regular use, as you agree they should be, if all other stalls are occupied. Now for the self-defeating part… In the relatively quiet restrooms, IF people followed your proposal, and didn’t unnecessarily use the HA stalls, the HA stalls would then stay MUCH more clean than all the rest of the normal stalls. But of course, if this were the case, many people would recognize this and take advantage of this theoretical cleanest stall. So you see, in practice, it could never work. Because if I’m going to use a stall, (which is almost always only if I’m gonna drop a deuce) I’m _surely_ going to be picking the cleanest stall, as would almost everyone else. P.S. What about the HA urinal? (you know, the one that’s lower and wider) Do you think that one should also be used as a last resort out of necessity? Because when it comes to urinals, every sane man knows that you always pick the urinal furthest from anybody else. So reserving that one for necessity-only just ain’t gonna work either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809.md?page=4)