# The handicap stall argument-clear and concise **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809 "2011-06-25T06:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/81 "2011-06-27T19:58:19Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Funny, this is the same argument used by assholes who park there “nice cars” illegally in handicap parking spots to avoid cramped parking. “Hey, this car cost $100,000. I’m not risking someone dinging me. There are 5 handicap spots open and I NEVER see a handicap person parking in any of them. If a handicap person needs this space, I’ll gladly move.” Now what you do isn’t illegal, the mentality behind your actions is the same. It’s already been pointed out that handicapped parking spaces are reserved for permitted drivers only whereas handicapped stalls are merely accessible…not reserved. As an able-bodied claustrophobic I have no reason to use a handicapped parking space, but a significant one for avoiding the unreasonably cramped stall. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/82 "2011-06-27T20:03:55Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Which, if the person were in the car with the keys, able to move at short notice, would actually not be the worst thing in the world. Since he’s not - he’s away from the parked car and can’t move it in a timely fashion - it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, and is a horrible analogy on your part. > > I agree with the posters who said if you were simply clearer that there was a specific situation you were trying to handle (in the OP), that you would have gotten a lot less argument and more sympathy and advice than you did. I sense this is a pattern with you. You’re a crusader. And there’s nothing wrong with that, really, but it’s going to be met with a lot of resistance when you try to take small, local issues and conflate them with larger global issues. > > You don’t have a problem with able bodied people using a handicapped stall in a general sense. You have a problem (and a very legitimate one) with a specific stall in a specific gym with a specific clientele which includes quite a higher percentage of disabled people than the general public, and the use of the stall you have a problem with isn’t as a bathroom stall, but as a changing room. That really bears no relation to the generalized issue of able-bodied people using the handicapped stall for elimination, which is what we all thought you were talking about in your OP. > > Keep your activism local and specific, and you’re going to be a lot more effective. One size rarely fits all, and that includes “arguments” like your OP. So the only relevance in this issue is the amount of time one would be waiting (unneccessarily, mind you) outside the stall, or outside the parking spot? Is that correct? That is the only determining factor in whether or not the action is justified? And my issue is NOT only relegated to this one establishment. It is just there that it is most relevant and justified in taking action. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/83 "2011-06-27T20:09:46Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > So the only relevance in this issue is the amount of time one would be waiting (unneccessarily, mind you) outside the stall, or outside the parking spot? Is that correct? That is the only determining factor in whether or not the action is justified? And my issue is NOT only relegated to this one establishment. It is just there that it is most relevant and justified in taking action. That and, as **Brown Eyed Girl** pointed out, the legality of the situation. Handicapped parking spaces are reserved. Handicapped toilet stalls are accessible. Not the same thing at all. I mean, seriously - we \*\*all \*\*have to wait for parking spots and bathroom stalls. Why shouldn’t you? I get that you were injured and that life is hard and that totally sucks, but you’re still an adult human being who can wait a few moments. There’s even less argument that you can’t wait 20 seconds for a car to back out of a parking spot than that you can’t wait 20 seconds for a stall to open up. (At least with the stall, there are arguments to be made about urgency and incontinence for some - not all - disabled people.) ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/84 "2011-06-27T20:15:16Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > That and, as **Brown Eyed Girl** pointed out, the legality of the situation. Handicapped parking spaces are reserved. Handicapped toilet stalls are accessible. Not the same thing at all. > > I mean, seriously - we \*\*all \*\*have to wait for parking spots and bathroom stalls. Why shouldn’t you? I get that you were injured and that life is hard and that totally sucks, but you’re still an adult human being who can wait a few moments. > > There’s even less argument that you can’t wait 20 seconds for a car to back out of a parking spot than that you can’t wait 20 seconds for a stall to open up. (At least with the stall, there are arguments to be made about urgency and incontinence for some - not all - disabled people.) For the umpteenth million and first time, I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WAITING FOR A STALL. Why is this so hard to grasp? I just want MY waiting to be on par with YOUR waiting. Get it? So you wait when all the stalls are occupied. That’s normal waiting that everyone has to deal with at times. That’s part of life. I only want to have to deal with THAT SORT of waiting. GET IT?! And I already acknowledged the difference in legality between the two situations. I was merely commenting on the mentality behind what motivates people. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/85 "2011-06-27T20:27:10Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Funny, this is the same argument used by assholes who park there “nice cars” illegally in handicap parking spots to avoid cramped parking. “Hey, this car cost $100,000. I’m not risking someone dinging me. There are 5 handicap spots open and I NEVER see a handicap person parking in any of them. If a handicap person needs this space, I’ll gladly move.” Now what you do isn’t illegal, the mentality behind your actions is the same. No, my body is not like a “nice car” with no dings. The difference is that I’m RIGHT THERE. I’m not 500 yards away in a store and you have no recourse. If you need the stall, I’ll be out in about 30 seconds. If you can’t wait 30 seconds, you have other problems. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/86 "2011-06-27T20:28:44Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > For the umpteenth million and first time, I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WAITING FOR A STALL. Why is this so hard to grasp? I just want MY waiting to be on par with YOUR waiting. Get it? So you wait when all the stalls are occupied. That’s normal waiting that everyone has to deal with at times. That’s part of life. I only want to have to deal with THAT SORT of waiting. GET IT?! Then what are we talking about? You keep changing this, or you’re very bad at communicating, or I’m an idiot. I know for certain the last isn’t true, so either you’re waffling or you’re unclear. > [@](#): > > No, that wouldn’t work, it would have to be more. I’m fairly certain, had there already been such a sign in place at Genesys, I still would have waited every single time I needed a toilet. > [@](#): > > I know, when people see me waiting outside of a stall, it’s very likely their first time EVER encountering such a situation, > [@](#): > > And don’t get me wrong here, this mentality extends to taking a piss in a handicap stall as well. Myriad times I have been in THAT situation as well, waiting, in an otherwise empty bathroom, while a guy stood there pissing inside the handicap stall. Why do you keep bringing up waiting if waiting isn’t the issue? Or is it that you claim you have to wait every single time you use any public restroom because there’s always, without exception, an able-bodied person in the stall? If so, A) I simply don’t believe you, based on how often I see open handicapped stalls and B) be glad you weren’t born a woman. I’m annoyed that I have to wait longer than men and wait more often than men, but that’s just life. I especially don’t believe that it’s a bigger problem in men’s rooms than women’s rooms, considering that women use stalls for all elimination, and my understanding is that the vast majority of men use urinals several times a day, and stalls for bowel movements once or twice a day. Women use stalls a lot, and yet the handicapped stall is still open a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/87 "2011-06-27T21:03:07Z")
Being handicapped doesn’t exempt you from the normal, everyday occurrences of life, like waiting a minute for a stall to open up. (Or finding that all the spots in lots are taken.) ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/88 "2011-06-27T22:23:52Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Being handicapped doesn’t exempt you from the normal, everyday occurrences of life, like waiting a minute for a stall to open up. (Or finding that all the spots in lots are taken.) Well it does at Disney and other attractions where people in wheelchairs (who are not necessarily handicapped or even in true need of a wheelchair at all) get to go right to the front of long lines. Disclaimer: This just popped into my head while reading the above and I do not intend to defend or assail this policy here. It really doesn’t bother me that much, but that’s possibly because I try to avoid such venues in general, and for all I know this policy is no longer abused by fakers. If someone feels strongly enough to expound on this issue, I’d suggest opening your own thread so as to not hijack this “clear and concise” one. No warranties, expressed or implied. ---
**Author:** ![srzss05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@srzss05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/srzss05)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/89 "2011-06-28T00:31:40Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > I’d suggest opening your own thread so as to not hijack this “clear and concise” one. Tee Hee. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/90 "2011-06-28T01:31:11Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Then what are we talking about? You keep changing this, or you’re very bad at communicating, or I’m an idiot. I know for certain the last isn’t true, so either you’re waffling or you’re unclear. > > Why do you keep bringing up waiting if waiting isn’t the issue? > > Or is it that you claim you have to wait every single time you use any public restroom because there’s always, without exception, an able-bodied person in the stall? If so, A) I simply don’t believe you, based on how often I see open handicapped stalls and B) be glad you weren’t born a woman. I’m annoyed that I have to wait longer than men and wait more often than men, but that’s just life. > > I especially don’t believe that it’s a bigger problem in men’s rooms than women’s rooms, considering that women use stalls for all elimination, and my understanding is that the vast majority of men use urinals several times a day, and stalls for bowel movements once or twice a day. Women use stalls a lot, and yet the handicapped stall is still open a lot. If you are unclear, AT THIS POINT, as to what the exact nature of my argument is…it would obviously be a waste of my time to go to any great length to try explaining it in a way that you could understand. There is absolutely no contradiction, waffling or any other inconsistencies in what I have been saying. I’m not letting YOUR deficiency at grasping this make me sound like a broken record. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/91 "2011-06-28T14:53:21Z")
I think I understand your clear and concise argument: you don’t mind waiting for a stall as long you have to wait no more often and no longer than everybody else. If you do, then that’s a really, really big deal to you. You seem to think that there is a way to eliminate this inconvenience related to your disability, and if the rest of the world doesn’t get on board, then we’re just assholes. No, we’re just living our own lives and, while most of us are perfectly happy to accommodate your needs when we can, we’re not motivated to help you avoid an annoyance that you’ve built up to huge proportions. So you have to wait a minute to pee at the gym, while someone else can walk in and pee right away. Big deal. If that’s your idea of injustice, you need to get out more. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/92 "2011-06-28T18:31:20Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > I think I understand your clear and concise argument: you don’t mind waiting for a stall as long you have to wait no more often and no longer than everybody else. If you do, then that’s a really, really big deal to you. > > You seem to think that there is a way to eliminate this inconvenience related to your disability, and if the rest of the world doesn’t get on board, then we’re just assholes. No, we’re just living our own lives and, while most of us are perfectly happy to accommodate your needs when we can, we’re not motivated to help you avoid an annoyance that you’ve built up to huge proportions. > > So you have to wait a minute to pee at the gym, while someone else can walk in and pee right away. Big deal. If that’s your idea of injustice, you need to get out more. Yeah, I’m working on thickening up my skin. You’re right, it’s insignificant and I have no real reason to bring this up. Geez I like to bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/93 "2011-06-28T18:54:31Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > I think I understand your clear and concise argument: you don’t mind waiting for a stall as long you have to wait no more often and no longer than everybody else. If you do, then that’s a really, really big deal to you. > > You seem to think that there is a way to eliminate this inconvenience related to your disability, and if the rest of the world doesn’t get on board, then we’re just assholes. No, we’re just living our own lives and, while most of us are perfectly happy to accommodate your needs when we can, we’re not motivated to help you avoid an annoyance that you’ve built up to huge proportions. > > So you have to wait a minute to pee at the gym, while someone else can walk in and pee right away. Big deal. If that’s your idea of injustice, you need to get out more. “you don’t mind waiting for a stall as long you have to wait no more often and no longer than everybody else.”-You are putting words into my mouth here. I never said “no more and no longer than everybody else”. Go back, I say “on par” with the waiting that you, the able-bodied, must endure. I know the handicap stall may be occupied, by those that need it, at times when there ARE other stalls available. In these instances, I would be waiting “more often and longer” than you, the able-bodied. I argue that those that are ABLE should reserve use of the accessible stall for times when all others are full. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/94 "2011-06-28T19:14:43Z")
Issues such as these are exactly why I always go before I leave the house. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/95 "2011-06-28T19:24:09Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > “you don’t mind waiting for a stall as long you have to wait no more often and no longer than everybody else.”-You are putting words into my mouth here. I never said “no more and no longer than everybody else”. Go back, I say “on par” with the waiting that you, the able-bodied, must endure. Do you spend all of your time picking nits? On par, same as, about the same as, no more often and no longer – it’s all the same thing. No, you never used the exact phrase “no more often and no longer than.” I’ll concede that. What I did – now, pay attention here – was, I _summarized_ and _paraphrased_ your position. Accurately. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Yeah, I’m working on thickening up my skin. You’re right, it’s insignificant and I have no real reason to bring this up. Geez I like to bitch. Good to see you coming around. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/96 "2011-06-28T19:29:35Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Do you spend all of your time picking nits? On par, same as, about the same as, no more often and no longer – it’s all the same thing. No, you never used the exact phrase “no more often and no longer than.” I’ll concede that. What I did – now, pay attention here – was, I _summarized_ and _paraphrased_ your position. Accurately. > Good to see you coming around. Uh, it’s absolutely NOT the same thing…As I just pointed out. Did you read it or just spout your opinion off? You were not accurate. GO BACK AND READ. Thanks. My issue here is not self-centered. I am using my experiences to show a larger problem at hand. I DO realize, however, at this point in time, it is a problem without a realistic solution but it is a problem nonetheless. A problem for ALL those with access-compromising disabilities who are a part of the functioning real world. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/97 "2011-06-28T19:32:44Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Do you spend all of your time picking nits? On par, same as, about the same as, no more often and no longer – it’s all the same thing. No, you never used the exact phrase “no more often and no longer than.” I’ll concede that. What I did – now, pay attention here – was, I _summarized_ and _paraphrased_ your position. Accurately. > Good to see you coming around. Uh, it’s absolutely NOT the same thing…As I just pointed out. Did you read it or just spout your opinion off? You were not accurate. GO BACK AND READ. Thanks. My issue here is not self-centered. I am using my experiences to show a larger problem at hand. I DO realize, however, at this point in time, it is a problem without a realistic solution but it is a problem nonetheless. A problem for ALL those with access-compromising disabilities who are a part of the functioning real world. If I were to have said what you claim I said, I wouldn’t have taken into account anyone else with a genuine need for the accessible ever having to use it, and therefore me having to wait for such a genuine use. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/98 "2011-06-28T19:43:21Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > My issue here is not self-centered. I am using my experiences to show a larger problem at hand. Is it possible that it _looks_ large because you have your nose pressed up against it? People with disabilities, handicapped bathrooms, and the urge to urinate have all been around for a while. If the problem were so monumental and endemic, affecting so many people’s lives, one would think we’d have heard about it before, loudly and often. So which do you think is more likely: you’re somehow the first crusader to blaze a trail on this critical issue----or maybe it’s actually more of an occasional minor annoyance, and not really worthy of all the _Sturm und Drang_? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/99 "2011-06-28T19:44:41Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Uh, it’s absolutely NOT the same thing…As I just pointed out. Did you read it or just spout your opinion off? You were not accurate. GO BACK AND READ. Thanks. My issue here is not self-centered. I am using my experiences to show a larger problem at hand. I DO realize, however, at this point in time, it is a problem without a realistic solution but it is a problem nonetheless. A problem for ALL those with access-compromising disabilities who are a part of the functioning real world. If I were to have said what you claim I said, I wouldn’t have taken into account anyone else with a genuine need for the accessible ever having to use it, and therefore me having to wait for such a genuine use. Missed the edit window. I know I’m not in the same boat as the able-bodied. I have one stall to use at all times. I know there are times when that stall will be in use when all other options are free. This is because there are people who need one or more of the various features in an accessible stall to be able to use the toilet successfully. So sometimes I must wait in situations when everyone else (the able bodied) can just go right in and right out without such waiting. These situations are completely justified and understandable. Just as the situations where all toilets and/or urinals are occupied, leaving the able-bodied no choice but to use the accessible stall. These situations are also completely justified and understandable. So waiting, in and of itself, is not the issue here. Not only am I ok with waiting in situations where everyone else would have to wait too (full bathroom), I am ok with waiting on a fellow patron in need using that stall. It’s simply the waiting as a result of a person choosing that stall out of convenience that I have a problem with. And, like I’ve said, I acknowledge the fact that it is a problem without a current solution. I’ve also said that it is still a very real issue in the lives of all those who depend on those stalls. It’s more than inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/100 "2011-06-28T19:48:33Z")
Same thing or very similar. My point is that you seem to be sitting there with a stopwatch timing how long you have to wait to pee. If it’s a few second too long, I suppose you scream discrimination and go talk to the gym manager. Don’t you have anything better to do? Face it, it’s a bitch to be disabled. This is one of the little things that makes it suck. Is that fair? No? I’ll even say HELL NO. It’s not fair, it’s not right, it’s not just, and in a perfect world you wouldn’t have to put up with this crap. But I think you’re expending way, WAY too much energy worrying about it. Get on with your life. I’m able bodied and I can come up with things that annoy the hell out of me, too, but I don’t let them consume me. We all got shit we got to deal with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809.md?page=6)