# The handicap stall argument-clear and concise **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2011, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809 "2011-06-25T06:37:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/121 "2011-06-29T14:28:09Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > I think you are willingly misunderstanding where I am coming from. May I suggest that this attitude you display doesn’t do your cause any good? I can only imagine what it is like for the gym manager or anyone else to discuss this with you. When a person states their position and you don’t like it, it doesn’t help to just insist that they see things your way or else they must be “willingly misunderstanding your position.” No, sometimes people just think your position is wrong or overblown. That seems hard for you to accept. If I were your gym manager and you came to me with this issue, I’d probably see your point, take it as a legitimate concern and see what we could do improve the situation. But if it was all you could talk about and you built it up into a huge deal, blowing a legit concern all out of proportion and insisting that people see it exactly your way, I’d reach a point where I’d tell you to fuck off. Nothing ruins a well intentioned cause like someone who goes off the deep end and pisses off the people who otherwise would be on your side. Not saying that’s what happened or is happening at your gym, but it’s the vibe I get. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/122 "2011-06-29T14:36:10Z")
Is there a particular reason you can’t wheel up to the occupied stall and say “Kindly get a move on, I’m in a wheelchair and really need that toilet”? If an able bodied person doesn’t get out within 30 seconds of such a request, then he’s being a jerk. It seems to me that the gym locker room needs to accommodate those that want a little privacy when they change, else they wouldn’t use the large stall in the first place. If there’s room in the bathroom, they could build a changing stall for those that need it, it shouldn’t cost much and they don’t have to plumb it. Talking about feasible options calmly with management is going to give you a much better chance of success than becoming so agitated with everyone who doesn’t instantly take your side. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/123 "2011-06-29T14:36:12Z")
Sorry! Everything is grand- but I’m in a remote part of South Africa and my only net access is via a Kindle. The keyboard sucks and the browser really wasn’t made for this. I’ll do a better job proofing next time! ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/124 "2011-06-30T04:37:29Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/125 "2011-06-30T04:43:02Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Seriosly, anothe vote for “be glas you aren’t a woman.” We regularly wait in long lines when there are plenty of free stalls. And there isn’t even any physical reason we can’t use them! Imagine if you were acty forbidden from using standard stalls! As a woman whi wears simple clothes and never has to deal with mensteral products in public bathrooms (thanks DivaCup) I bet I wait more than you for even less reason. > > But who cares? It’s a couple minutes out of my day. > > Anyway, you catch more flies with sugar than vinigar. Giving people what they want is going to be better than denying them what they want. I would ajitate for more changing stalls. At the risk of really sounding stupid here, could you explain this a little further? I am confused here. WHY exactly do women wait in long lines when there are plenty of free stalls which they have no physical reason preventing them from using? You are forbidden from using stalls? What? How do you wait so often? I am merely asking here, there is no contention to my questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@Disgruntled\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disgruntled_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/126 "2011-06-30T08:42:48Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > So what if there were no “people in wheelchairs” or other “access-compromised” folks out there in the world? What if everyone out and about in the functioning world were able-bodied? What if they were all like you? Then there would never be any “handicap stalls” in these bathrooms ever in the first place. Every single stall would be the “awful, inconvenient, tight, cramped” regular stalls. What would you do then? Use the regular stalls all the time. It’s only due to the fact that there ARE people in wheelchairs and people with other disabilities that are part of the working/functioning world that has made those “big, convenient” stalls a possibility for you, the able-bodied, to be able to enjoy at all. And I know everyone thinks I have a “major chip on my shoulder” and what not, but that’s not the case. Every single other person in a wheelchair that I know feels EXACTLY the same way as I do regarding this issue. I merely am willing to stick my neck out there and speak up. And can you really blame others for not wanting to go through what I go through with this? It’s not just here, it’s everywhere. Alot of people (by no means everyone though) simply can’t (or more likely don’t WANT) to see the situation for what it really is. Well, all the regular stalls would actually be a little bigger if there weren’t any over sized ones. > [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > Of course everyone’s not an “insensitive asshole”. But there are plenty of them out there. What does that have to do with anything? So just because NOT EVERYBODY would do something, there should be nothing done about the people who WOULD? That’s a winning argument. Of course, your sign idea wouldn’t have any effect on the “insensitive assholes” anyway. I actually like your sign idea. It’s just a reminder and that’s not a bad idea, especially in the situation you describe. I am curious about one thing though. How do you know when you come across empty normal stalls that they have been that way for a while and the person in the handicapped one chose it in spite of this? I mean, the person in the handicapped stall may well have used the only open stall at the time and since they got there last, they may well leave last. This actually is why nothing really can be done about the issue except a sign. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/127 "2011-06-30T10:12:38Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > At the risk of really sounding stupid here, could you explain this a little further? I am confused here. WHY exactly do women wait in long lines when there are plenty of free stalls which they have no physical reason preventing them from using? You are forbidden from using stalls? What? How do you wait so often? I am merely asking here, there is no contention to my questioning. The problem isn’t that there are free stalls, it’s that there never seems to be _enough_ stalls for the women. ANY event where there are large numbers of people will result in a backup at the women’s toilet and often long lines and long waits. One theory (which I think makes some sense) is that it takes women longer to piss because, unlike men who unzip their pants, whip out their wang, piss, and are done, with replacement of wang and re-zipping of pants quickly done, the mechanics of women’s clothing is such that they must partially disrobe, sit,\* piss, wipe, stand up, then partially re-dress. On top of that, the urinals men use take up considerably less space than the stalls women use, meaning theoretically more men could be pissing in their room than women can in theirs. Presumably men usually take less time, more can do their business per unit of time, and because men’s rooms have urinals there can be more men doing their business per unit of space. As a result, men’s rooms of comparable size can serve more men per unit of time than the women’s rooms, and thus are less likely to be backed up… as shown by experience. There is _already_ an informal custom that visibly pregnant women go to the front of the line… but it’s not in law, not a formal rule, and certainly not always granted. On a few occasions I have likewise seen women in wheelchairs or using walkers sent to the front, but then you have the problem of them getting physically past all the other women lined up in the entrance which, while adequate for a wheelchair while empty, isn’t when there’s a line of people in it. Some new construction is actually making the women’s toilets physically larger than the men’s, with more stalls, but that’s in no way required and purely at the option of the builders/owners. And gets some men pissed off that women are getting “special privileges” rather than getting the opportunity to piss as promptly as their male counterparts. - Or for the germ-phobic, hover, or possibly commit some other atrocity to keep their precious butt off the seat, leading to scenarios covered in other threads. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/128 "2011-06-30T11:22:55Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > The problem isn’t that there are free stalls, it’s that there never seems to be _enough_ stalls for the women. ANY event where there are large numbers of people will result in a backup at the women’s toilet and often long lines and long waits. > > One theory (which I think makes some sense) is that it takes women longer to piss because, unlike men who unzip their pants, whip out their wang, piss, and are done, with replacement of wang and re-zipping of pants quickly done, the mechanics of women’s clothing is such that they must partially disrobe, sit,\* piss, wipe, stand up, then partially re-dress. On top of that, the urinals men use take up considerably less space than the stalls women use, meaning theoretically more men could be pissing in their room than women can in theirs. Presumably men usually take less time, more can do their business per unit of time, and because men’s rooms have urinals there can be more men doing their business per unit of space. As a result, men’s rooms of comparable size can serve more men per unit of time than the women’s rooms, and thus are less likely to be backed up… as shown by experience. > > There is _already_ an informal custom that visibly pregnant women go to the front of the line… but it’s not in law, not a formal rule, and certainly not always granted. On a few occasions I have likewise seen women in wheelchairs or using walkers sent to the front, but then you have the problem of them getting physically past all the other women lined up in the entrance which, while adequate for a wheelchair while empty, isn’t when there’s a line of people in it. > > Some new construction is actually making the women’s toilets physically larger than the men’s, with more stalls, but that’s in no way required and purely at the option of the builders/owners. And gets some men pissed off that women are getting “special privileges” rather than getting the opportunity to piss as promptly as their male counterparts. > > - Or for the germ-phobic, hover, or possibly commit some other atrocity to keep their precious butt off the seat, leading to scenarios covered in other threads. “We regularly wait in long lines when there are plenty of free stalls. And there isn’t even any physical reason we can’t use them! Imagine if you were acty forbidden from using standard stalls! As a woman whi wears simple clothes and never has to deal with mensteral products in public bathrooms (thanks DivaCup) I bet I wait more than”…This quote from the aforementioned woman would seem to directly refute your theory. ---
**Author:** ![xoferew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/e9a140/32.png) [@xoferew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xoferew)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/129 "2011-06-30T11:56:05Z")
There are often plenty of free stalls in the men’s bathroom, which the women cannot use. I’m guessing that’s what she meant, and I’ve often found it to be the case. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/130 "2011-06-30T15:13:06Z")
OTOH, for some reason women seem able to crap much more quickly than men. Going by personal observation, it’s the men in the office who head off with a newspaper, while the women zip in and out. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/131 "2011-06-30T15:34:02Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > OTOH, for some reason women seem able to crap much more quickly than men. Going by personal observation, it’s the men in the office who head off with a newspaper, while the women zip in and out. Yeah, I’m female and I barely have time to read a sentence or two before I’m done. Do we have any ideas on why dudes take longer on the can? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/132 "2011-06-30T16:38:17Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, I’m female and I barely have time to read a sentence or two before I’m done. Do we have any ideas on why dudes take longer on the can? Dunno, maybe women just have stronger sphincters in general? My own anecdotal evidence agrees that women can definitely pinch out a loaf with surprising speed compared to us men. It would also explain how women can seemingly hold-in farts, or at least sneak them out much better than we do. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/133 "2011-06-30T16:39:42Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > No, I agree, there are of course circumstances where my argument would be silly, I acknowledge this. That is why I stress the word “awareness”. A blanket “rule” regarding the stalls wouldn’t be appropriate, for situations just like the ones you’ve highlighted. I guess I would want it to apply to establishments serving the general public at large, such as malls or event centers or stadiums or the like. You know, large-scale establishments that don’t cater to any one particular demographic or office places which don’t employ any disabled people. And obviously places which DO cater to the disabled, such as the gym I am now a member of, I would want such a “suggestion” to be in place. These are all very early-stage ideas at this point, nothing more. So I welcome dialogue such as this, it only helps to further clarify the issue. However, the issue needs to be addressed in some way. It’s not just my perspective that has shaped my feelings on the matter. Far from it. It is also the input and the ire from countless other disabled people who have shared their stories with me (and many times these stories are humiliating for the person telling them). Just because I am willing to stand up (harty har har) and speak up about it DOES NOT mean my disabled peers feel any less strongly about it than I do. They simply don’t (for whatever reason, fear, timidity, hopelessness, etc.) speak up. I’m glad we could agree on that. I just wasn’t sure how far you wanted to draw the line dividing personal convenience and the probability for the need of someone else. I would agree that places that regularly cater to the handicapped, or a place like the mall probably could at least post signs, not unlike how the pregnant women parking spaces are handled, and it would probably alleviate a lot of the issue. As for places like event centers and stadiums, IME there’s usually a line which would mitigate the circumstances anyway since that stall then becomes one of necessity for everyone, since everyone is stuck waiting. As for your own situation, as others suggested, recommend to your gym a changing stall. Some people are just shy or may even have some deeper issues and that privacy while changing is actually something bordering on need for them and, well, changing in a regular stall just isn’t feasible. If it comes up as an issue that someone is changing in the handicapped stall often enough when you need it, a changing area sounds like a reasonable and fairly cheap solution, if there’s room. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, I’m female and I barely have time to read a sentence or two before I’m done. Do we have any ideas on why dudes take longer on the can? Because it’s the one place where women will leave us alone. 😛 Seriously though, for some guys, especially when at work or stressed, it’s just a nice little private break. It’s not terribly unlike the difference between taking a quick 5-minute shower to get clean, or a 10-15 minute one to relax a bit. I’m usually in and out in less than 5 minutes, especially when in a public restroom, but sometimes at home or work, it’s nice not to rush. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/134 "2011-06-30T17:02:12Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, I’m female and I barely have time to read a sentence or two before I’m done. Do we have any ideas on why dudes take longer on the can? > [@voltaire](#): > > Dunno, maybe women just have stronger sphincters in general? My own anecdotal evidence agrees that women can definitely pinch out a loaf with surprising speed compared to us men. It would also explain how women can seemingly hold-in farts, or at least sneak them out much better than we do. Women are more likely to eat fiber-filled salads and stuff like that? Whenever my, um, morning log slows down on its trip through the flue I up my fiber and that usually takes care of it in a day or two. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/135 "2011-07-01T18:59:04Z")
By the way, this is neither here nor there but anyone seen the “Curb Your Enthusiasm” episode featuring the man in a wheelchair and the handicap stall with Larry using it (when all other stalls occupied, mind you)? I HATE that episode. While it is funny and all, it makes my efforts that much harder because people equate what I want to want the disabled guy in that episode is RANTING about. And they are NOT the same. He is (ridiculously, imo) calling for NO ONE who is not disabled to EVER use the handicap stall. That is flat out stupid and ridiculous. And this stereotype, that of the angry wheelchair-bound person demanding exclusive rights to the handicap stall, gets conflated with the reasonable request that I am proposing (in early stage, discussion form). ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/136 "2011-07-01T19:02:38Z")
> [@jamiemcgarry](#): > > “We regularly wait in long lines when there are plenty of free stalls. And there isn’t even any physical reason we can’t use them! Imagine if you were acty forbidden from using standard stalls! As a woman whi wears simple clothes and never has to deal with mensteral products in public bathrooms (thanks DivaCup) I bet I wait more than”…This quote from the aforementioned woman would seem to directly refute your theory. I think that woman who posted this was full of shit (no pun intended). It doesnt even make any freaking sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lionne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Lionne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lionne)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/137 "2011-07-01T19:56:21Z")
It makes sense when you realize that she’s talking about not being able to utilize the stalls in mens’ rooms - usually located just adjacent to the womens. There’s no physical reason we can’t use them, just societal norms. So the argument can be made that women have to wait just as unnecessarily as you have to wait. (apologies to \*\*even sven \*\*if I’ve misinterpreted your views) ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/138 "2011-07-01T20:23:55Z")
> [@Lionne](#): > > It makes sense when you realize that she’s talking about not being able to utilize the stalls in mens’ rooms - usually located just adjacent to the womens. There’s no physical reason we can’t use them, just societal norms. > So the argument can be made that women have to wait just as unnecessarily as you have to wait. > > (apologies to \*\*even sven \*\*if I’ve misinterpreted your views) Oh that’s a stretch ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809/139 "2011-07-02T01:23:59Z")
> [@Lionne](#): > > It makes sense when you realize that she’s talking about not being able to utilize the stalls in mens’ rooms - usually located just adjacent to the womens. There’s no physical reason we can’t use them, just societal norms. > So the argument can be made that women have to wait just as unnecessarily as you have to wait. > > (apologies to \*\*even sven \*\*if I’ve misinterpreted your views) So she is equating my waiting for the handicap stall when all other toilets are available to a woman waiting because all the toilets (including the handicap stall) are occupied but not being able to use the men’s toilets? That is probably the most ridiculous counter-argument yet. I won’t even begin to pick apart that argument because it is so silly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-handicap-stall-argument-clear-and-concise/586809.md?page=6)