# The Health Benefits of Circumcision: The "Naturalistic Fallacy" gets the boot.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 10, 2008, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959 "2008-01-10T07:16:18Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/41 "2008-01-10T20:19:12Z")
[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry]
Although I can’t actually provide cites, I believe I have run across reports of studies showing benefits of male circumcision to the health and perhaps fertility of female partners. This seems like a place where you could strengthen your argument with facts if you’re willing to search the appropriate literature.
Like “naturalistic fallacy,” “politically correct” is a phrase that may be misused more often than it is used in its original sense, which has its origins in Marxist social theory. In your article it comes across as an unoriginal ad hominem attack against the other side of the debate.
ETA: And there \*\*Slypork \*\* is with the cites.
[/QUOTE]
On the other hand:
Van Howe RS. Human papillomavirus and circumcision: a meta-analysis. Journal of Infection. 54(5):490-6, 2007 May.
> [@](#):
>
> This is the first systematic review of the medical literature looking at the risk of genital HPV infections based on circumcision status. Using strict criteria to include multiple genital sites for sampling, including detection of HPV on the penile shaft the analysis failed to show a significant association between genital HPV infection and circumcision status.
It appears that the link between circumcision and HPV infection is far from settled.
---
### Author:  [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/42 "2008-01-10T20:35:30Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
On the other hand:
Van Howe RS. Human papillomavirus and circumcision: a meta-analysis. Journal of Infection. 54(5):490-6, 2007 May.
> [@](#):
>
> This is the first systematic review of the medical literature looking at the risk of genital HPV infections based on circumcision status. Using strict criteria to include **multiple genital sites** for sampling, including detection of HPV on the penile shaft the analysis failed to show a significant association between genital HPV infection and circumcision status.
It appears that the link between circumcision and HPV infection is far from settled.
[/QUOTE]
bolding mine.
Does that mean they checked many genitals, multiple sites on the genitals or that the subject had multiple genitals? 😉
Does that mean, though, that the male can’t carry the HPV under the foreskin without actually becoming infected himself?
---
### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/43 "2008-01-10T20:57:29Z")
[QUOTE=Slypork]
There have been studies that link circumcision to reduced STD infection, HIV infection, and chances of their female partner developing cervical cancer.
[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593753/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15593753/)
[http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/12/13/circumcision-hiv.html](http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/12/13/circumcision-hiv.html)
[http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS\_1\_1x\_New\_Study\_Shows\_Benefit\_of\_Male\_Circumcision.asp](http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_New_Study_Shows_Benefit_of_Male_Circumcision.asp)
As for penile cancer, the [University of Chicago](http://www.ucurology.org/urologicCancer/penile/index.htm) says bolding mine.
We are now pushing for girls to receive the HPV vaccine to reduce the risk of them developing cervical cancer. Circumcision provides a comparable benefit (I wonder if boys would benefit from the vaccine as well). While the procedure of circumcision might be traumatic if not properly done (my son was circed under local anesthesia using the Plastibell. He never made a sound and did not experience any problems. YMMV), I believe the benefits for both the man and his partner outweigh the negatives.
[/QUOTE]
Much more convincing than the OP.
---
### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/44 "2008-01-10T21:25:29Z")
Here’s the question kinda turned on it’s head. Leaving out the non-quantifiable stuff, like the (IMO specious) argument that neonatal male circumcision negatively impacts the male’s sexual experience later in life, and the naturalistic objections (the OP actually does have a good argument here, we as a species do all kinds of things that aren’t “natural” because we believe that they are to our benefit) are there any health benefits associated with NOT circumcising newborn males?
---
### Author:  [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/45 "2008-01-10T21:35:36Z")
When I have kids, I am going to choose whichever option is the most cutting-edge.
---
### Author:  [@OneCentStamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneCentStamp)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/46 "2008-01-10T21:37:05Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus]
When I have kids, I am going to choose whichever option is the most cutting-edge.
[/QUOTE]
Boooooooooo.
😛
---
### Author:  [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/47 "2008-01-11T03:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave]
Here’s the question kinda turned on it’s head. Leaving out the non-quantifiable stuff, like the (IMO specious) argument that neonatal male circumcision negatively impacts the male’s sexual experience later in life, and the naturalistic objections (the OP actually does have a good argument here, we as a species do all kinds of things that aren’t “natural” because we believe that they are to our benefit) are there any health benefits associated with NOT circumcising newborn males?
[/QUOTE]
[Complications, risks, adverse effects of circumcision](http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/) – This is an anti-circ site, but all links seem to be from medical journals. Case reports included:
Ablation of the penis
Adhesions
Amputation of the penis
Reactions to anesthesia
Apnea
Bleeding and Hemorrhages
Buried, Concealed, and Hidden Penis
Circulatory Complications (including gangrene)
Injuries from the clamps or Plastibell
Death
Denudation of the penile shaft
Infection
Keloids
I’ll stop there. A circumcision isn’t without risks, like any medical procedure that involves the removal of a part of the body.
From [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E0D7133CF931A35750C0A96F958260](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E0D7133CF931A35750C0A96F958260)
> [@](#):
>
> The American Academy of Pediatrics, which issued a new circumcision policy yesterday, has had three different policies in as many decades. In the 1970’s, the academy said there was no ‘‘medical indication’’ for circumcision. In 1989, it reported ‘‘potential medical benefits.’’
>
> Now, the 55,000-member academy has concluded that although there are potential benefits, the data are ‘‘not significant enough’’ to recommend routine circumcision. . .
>
> The new report, which appears in the March issue of the journal Pediatrics, also scrutinizes the potential benefits of circumcision cited 10 years ago: lower rates of infant urinary tract infections and of sexually transmitted diseases and penile cancer in adults.
>
> Although uncircumcised baby boys have a fourfold risk of getting urinary tract infections in the first year, the report says, that means, at most, a 1 in 100 chance. And although uncircumcised men – especially those with phimosis, the painful inability to retract the foreskin – have three times the risk of developing penile cancer, that risk is ‘‘extremely low’’ in America, where only about 9 of every 1 million men are diagnosed with the disease.
>
> The academy also reports that while studies suggest circumcised men have a reduced risk of contracting H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS, ‘‘behavioral factors appear to be far more important risk factors’’ than circumcision status.
---
### Author:  [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/48 "2008-01-11T03:26:08Z")
[QUOTE=Drain Bead]
[Complications, risks, adverse effects of circumcision](http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/) – This is an anti-circ site, but all links seem to be from medical journals. Case reports included:
Ablation of the penis
Adhesions
Amputation of the penis
Reactions to anesthesia
Apnea
Bleeding and Hemorrhages
Buried, Concealed, and Hidden Penis
Circulatory Complications (including gangrene)
Injuries from the clamps or Plastibell
Death
Denudation of the penile shaft
Infection
Keloids
I’ll stop there. A circumcision isn’t without risks, like any medical procedure that involves the removal of a part of the body.
[/QUOTE]
That wasn’t exactly my question. Of course there are risks to any surgical procedure, I was asking if there were any health benefits to having a foreskin, beyond the fact that there is no way to have complications from a surgery you didn’t have.
---
### Author:  [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/49 "2008-01-11T03:58:04Z")
[QUOTE=ambushed]
> [@D\_White](#):
>
> > [@ambushed](#):
> >
> > The overwhelming source of pseudo-scientific and anti-scientific assertions that lay claim to by far the largest audience is a pseudo-scientific hodge-podge of often conflicting views propounded by the self-described “anti-circumcision” movement. This group does include legitimate doctors and scientists, but then so do the still-active HIV denialists like Dr. Peter Duesberg and others.
>
> What pseudo-scientific and anti-scientific assertions? Who from the “anti-circumcision” movement is on par with Peter Duesberg?
That question represents a _non sequitur_.
[/QUOTE]
_Non sequitir_ is not Latin for “I don’t have a freaking clue.”
---
### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/50 "2008-01-11T11:59:06Z")
From **Drain Bead** ’s quote:
> [@](#):
>
> And although uncircumcised men – especially those with phimosis, the painful inability to retract the foreskin – have three times the risk of developing penile cancer, that risk is ‘‘extremely low’’ in America, where only about 9 of every 1 million men are diagnosed with the disease.
So if I’d been circumcised as an infant, my risk of developing penile cancer would go from a horrifying 0.0009% all the way to a nice reassuring 0.0003%? I can’t imagine what my parents were thinking of. I’d also be astonished to learn that my lifestyle carried a mere 0.0009% risk of, say, some other form of cancer, or heart disease, all of which I could be doing something about by eating less and better, and exercising more - and I’ll lay a little spare change that exactly the same is true of **ambushed**.
It’s interesting that **ambushed** should believe that uncircumcised men experience less sexual pleasure because the foreskin prevents stimulation of the glans. As the owner of an intact foreskin, I’m pleased to report that it’s retractable, and some women appear happy to retract it as part of foreplay. 🙂
---
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/51 "2008-01-11T13:16:40Z")
[QUOTE=Slypork]
bolding mine.
Does that mean they checked many genitals, multiple sites on the genitals or that the subject had multiple genitals? 😉
[/quote]
You joke, but that appears to be the crux of the matter. Studies finding a link between circumcision and HPV apparently tend to have only checked the “glans, coronal sulcus and, for uncircumcised men, the prepuce.” When studies include other sites, such as the shaft and scrotum, no differences are found in HPV based on circumcision status.
> [@](#):
>
> Does that mean, though, that the male can’t carry the HPV under the foreskin without actually becoming infected himself?
I don’t know. I’m not at all an expert on HPV and circumcision. I was just interested, since most of your cites were from non-medical sources, to search the recent literature and see if this was as resolved as you made it appear to be. I would say it is not.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/52 "2008-01-11T13:23:42Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra]
It’s interesting that **ambushed** should believe that uncircumcised men experience less sexual pleasure because the foreskin prevents stimulation of the glans. As the owner of an intact foreskin, I’m pleased to report that it’s retractable, and some women appear happy to retract it as part of foreplay. 🙂
[/QUOTE]
Now that we’re in the pit, I don’t see any reason why those of us with foreskins shouldn’t just wave the stinky, offensive, unhygenic and highly dangerous appendages at the OP.
---
### Author:  [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/53 "2008-01-11T14:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian]
You joke, but that appears to be the crux of the matter. Studies finding a link between circumcision and HPV apparently tend to have only checked the “glans, coronal sulcus and, for uncircumcised men, the prepuce.” When studies include other sites, such as the shaft and scrotum, no differences are found in HPV based on circumcision status.I don’t know. I’m not at all an expert on HPV and circumcision. I was just interested, since most of your cites were from non-medical sources, to search the recent literature and see if this was as resolved as you made it appear to be. I would say it is not.
[/QUOTE]
I never claimed that it was resolved, just that there were articles that appear to show benefits to getting the tallywacker snipped. I don’t have a dog in this fight. There are important things going on in the world that I could get worked up about and the decision about whether someone wants their son to get cut ranks right up in the top, oh, 5 billion.
My reasons for getting my son circed were:
1. I’m cut. Sons will see their dad naked at some point and, besides noticing the size and hair difference, will wonder, “Why does daddy’s thing look like a snail with a helmet and mine looks like a snake in a turtleneck?”
2. Most of the kids I grew up with were cut, around 95% or more. When you had to take a shower after gym in high school there are a lot of swinging dicks around. The uncut guy was the odd man out. One kid was laughed at. Same thing in the Army, except it was more like 80% of the guys were cut.
3. Familiarity for my wife. She had never been involved with an uncut guy and had only seen pictures so she didn’t want to be working on unfamiliar anatomy when it came to…
4. Cleanliness. I hated changing diapers and wiping up. The thought of having to routinely pull back the foreskin to make sure he wasn’t collecting headcheese just grossed me out. My wife also thought it was gross. Plus my son had intestinal problems that would cause explosive diarrhea that covered everything in his diaper with crap. I’m glad that I didn’t have to routinely clean up under the folds.
a. Teen cleanliness. I know that when I was a teen that showering was not a number one priority. Greasy hair, oily skin, dirty fingernails: yup I had them all. I notice that my 15 year old is trying to carry on the family tradition. If he hadn’t been clipped, god only knows what would be growing down there. Hey, I’m sure that if I wasn’t circed that the foreskin would have been pulled back plenty of times when Rosy Palm and her five daughters were going to work, but I doubt that it would have happened much for regularly scheduled maintenance.
Look, if you’re not cut and are happy then great. Hold your foreskin high and say, “I’m proud of my prepuce.” If you’re cut and happy, good for you. Wave your wang with joy (or wave your wang _at_ Joy). If you are not happy with the current foreskin situation, consult your urologist and maybe they can help you to learn to love your schlong again.
Me? I’m happy with what I got and my wife seems to enjoy it, too.
---
### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/54 "2008-01-11T14:40:32Z")
[QUOTE=Slypork]
Look, if you’re not cut and are happy then great. Hold your foreskin high and say, “I’m proud of my prepuce.” If you’re cut and happy, good for you. Wave your wang with joy (or wave your wang _at_ Joy). If you are not happy with the current foreskin situation, consult your urologist and maybe they can help you to learn to love your schlong again.
Me? I’m happy with what I got and my wife seems to enjoy it, too.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not all that concered about what other people do with their johnsons. It’s more to do with what people do with scientific findings. That’s where I get interested.
Just FYI, I was cut, but I decided that my sons wouldn’t be. It isn’t a big deal. None of the list of concerns you gave have been any kind of issue at all. But hey, that’s your call and it’s great. I have no penis agenda, just a science one. I’d hate for people to be misinformed.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/55 "2008-01-11T15:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=Slypork]
4. Cleanliness. I hated changing diapers and wiping up. The thought of having to routinely pull back the foreskin to make sure he wasn’t collecting headcheese just grossed me out. My wife also thought it was gross. Plus my son had intestinal problems that would cause explosive diarrhea that covered everything in his diaper with crap. I’m glad that I didn’t have to routinely clean up under the folds.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t think that’s actually a concern - the foreskin isn’t usually retractable until the child is plenty old enough to be able to take responsibility for the washing himself.
---
### Author:  [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/56 "2008-01-11T15:30:11Z")
You’re right. More people need to study [del]penises[/del] [del]penii[/del] schlongs. Ladies, we need your help! We need you to carefully study and examine them and how they respond to various forms of stimuli. OK, guys. Let’s line up for short arm inspection.
---
### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/57 "2008-01-11T16:15:25Z")
So now that the hysteria has deflated out of this thread some … why is it that this subject excites so many so? Why do people become so rigid in their thinking re circumcision? Is it just that when it concerns penises guys always want the issue to appear larger than it is?
Okay. Bad attempts at humor aside, _why_ do people care so much about this? Really.
---
### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/58 "2008-01-11T17:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid]
So now that the hysteria has deflated out of this thread some … why is it that this subject excites so many so? Why do people become so rigid in their thinking re circumcision? Is it just that when it concerns penises guys always want the issue to appear larger than it is?
Okay. Bad attempts at humor aside, _why_ do people care so much about this? Really.
[/QUOTE]
It isn’t hard to see why this issue gets inflated out of all purportion. The thrust of the argument would be the friction on display is the result of the pounding of personal against societal and religious norms.
[Sorry. 😉]
---
### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/59 "2008-01-11T17:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=Slypork]
I’m cut. Sons will see their dad naked at some point and, besides noticing the size and hair difference, will wonder, “Why does daddy’s thing look like a snail with a helmet and mine looks like a snake in a turtleneck?”
[/QUOTE]
Of the many commonly-offered reasons for circumcision, this one has always made the least sense to me. First of all I have no memory of ever seeing my father’s penis, nor ever wanting to, nor do I feel the faintest regret over having been deprived of the sight. Secondly, it’s another one of those instances where parents seem to become paralyzed with fear over something (“b..b…but what will we tell the CHILDREN when they ASK?”) that your average kid probably won’t give two thoughts about, and will completely take in stride—while ironically, the adults are the ones anxiously biting their nails and obsessing over it.
(Full disclosure: cut, never missed it; no kids, glad I won’t have to face what is evidently one of the most controversial and difficult moral dilemmas in the history of parenting)
---
### Author:  [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959/60 "2008-01-11T17:47:48Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Of the many commonly-offered reasons for circumcision, this one has always made the least sense to me. First of all I have no memory of ever seeing my father’s penis, nor ever wanting to, nor do I feel the faintest regret over having been deprived of the sight. Secondly, it’s another one of those instances where parents seem to become paralyzed with fear over something (“b..b…but what will we tell the CHILDREN when they ASK?”) that your average kid probably won’t give two thoughts about, and will completely take in stride—while ironically, the adults are the ones anxiously biting their nails and obsessing over it.
(Full disclosure: cut, never missed it; no kids, glad I won’t have to face what is evidently one of the most controversial and difficult moral dilemmas in the history of parenting)
[/QUOTE]
I remember being about 5 and going to the ball game with my dad. We were standing at the trough peeing and I saw what to my mind was a penis the size of a Louisville slugger. There were alos occasions where I would walk into the bathroom as he was getting out of the shower or changing into swim trunks at the public pool. And the same kind of things happened with my son when he was little. Ask any dad and he will tell you that it is common.
Those are the times that lead to questions about why daddy has hair, when will he get it and so on. Little boys want to be just like dad (at least until they become teens when they want to believe that they have nothing in common with their folks). Explaining to your son why you are cut and he isn’t won’t be too difficult. I feel sorry for a guy with a Prince Albert!
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959.md?page=2)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-benefits-of-circumcision-the-naturalistic-fallacy-gets-the-boot/432959.md?page=4)