# The health care bill creates a tax, and therefore is Constitutional - right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877 "2010-03-26T14:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/21 "2010-03-26T16:21:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you denying John’s claim that he explicitly DEFINED who he wouldn’t raise taxes on? That he didn’t mention a figure of $250,000 per year as a cutoff? > > It seems to me you’re pretty much in the, “Yes we all know what this is, technically, but we can’t say the words or they will be used against us.” > > Why not simply say, “Technically, yes, it’s a tax, and it may be levied against people making less than $250K, but the overall savings more than wipe out the increase.” What’s wrong with that? Because when the attack ads come out all you’re going to hear of that statement is Obama saying “yes, it’s a tax” “yes, it’s a tax” “yes, it’s a tax” in a constant loop while gloomy music plays in the background. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/22 "2010-03-26T16:21:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If Obama denies that it’s a tax, that doesn’t affect the constitutional question one bit. Well, it could. There are still originalist judges around, and someone somewhere will surely use Obama’s statement that it is not a tax to file suit- after all, if it isn’t a tax, it’s unconstitutional, right? That said, Obama’s statement is irrelevant because it isn’t (strictly speaking) his legislation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/23 "2010-03-26T16:29:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It was $200K, and he has kept that promise. > > The charaterization of a perfectly avoidable penal tax as a “tax increase” is a false one, and that’s the end of it. You haven’t caught your President in any kind of inconsistency here. This is about him not getting sucked into accepting a false characterization. So, I’m a healthy 30 year old w/o health insurance. I’m going to gamble and not get any until I’m 35. I make $50k a year. Have my taxes gone up? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/24 "2010-03-26T16:30:51Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > If we can show Obama lied, we can bring him down to the level of all the other politicians, and he loses his magical powers. But Rush said Obama is a magic Negro. Are you saying Rush lied?!!! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/25 "2010-03-26T16:35:31Z")
It was $250,000. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/26 "2010-03-26T16:36:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, I’m a healthy 30 year old w/o health insurance. I’m going to gamble and not get any until I’m 35. I make $50k a year. Have my taxes gone up? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/27 "2010-03-26T16:37:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, I’m a healthy 30 year old w/o health insurance. I’m going to gamble and not get any until I’m 35. I make $50k a year. Have my taxes gone up? Yes but via a decision you made and thus avoidable. If you choose to buy property you pay property taxes thus your taxes go up. So, say you currently do not own property and the government raises property taxes. Have your taxes gone up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/28 "2010-03-26T16:37:33Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Nope. Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/29 "2010-03-26T16:39:17Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It was $250,000. It was $200,000 for singles, $250,000 for joints. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/30 "2010-03-26T16:39:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes but via a decision you made and thus avoidable. > > If you choose to buy property you pay property taxes thus your taxes go up. So, you currently do not own property and the government raises property taxes. Have your taxes gone up because later you make a decision to buy property? Bad analogy. I didn’t do anything, in the case I outlined. Or, I guess I missed the part where Obama said he wouldn’t raise taxes on people making less than $250k/year unless they decided not to buy HCI. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/31 "2010-03-26T16:41:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yep. Sorry, but no. Your taxes are the same. You just opted to pay a penal tax as well. You don’t have to. It’s also not part of your income tax, which is what Obama was talking about with his tax promse (that he’s totally kept). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/32 "2010-03-26T16:42:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. I didn’t do anything, in the case I outlined. _Not_ doing something is a choice every bit as much as doing something is. As such you can be held accountable for that choice. You choose not to buy health insurance but there is a real chance you would then become a liability everyone else has to pay for (unless you can magically guarantee perfect health over that time period). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/33 "2010-03-26T16:42:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. I didn’t do anything, in the case I outlined. > > Or, I guess I missed the part where Obama said he wouldn’t raise taxes on people making less than $250k/year unless they decided not to buy HCI. He didn’t raise taxes on anybody. Congress imposed a penal tax. It’s not a tax hike. They are different things. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/34 "2010-03-26T16:43:52Z")
I still haven’t had time to go back and read the opinion to be more specific (or find out I’m off base), but … [Kelo](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FKelo_v._City_of_New_London&ei=tdisS9ujKsL48AbjodCiCw&usg=AFQjCNGpKat2VRm2mo5mnqlJECMshM-eCw) approved the government taking of private property and giving it to another private party for societal benefit. Though distinguishable on several (IMHO irrelevant) fronts, I daresay that one could lose on the tax issue (it is/isn’t) yet win on the overall Constitutionality. Note that in keeping a tight focus on the OP, I’m addressing the financial aspect of Constitutionality. There are other ostensibly open questions, but I’m trying not to stray too far. ETA: Assuming the OP was “since you no longer have the ‘it’s just a tax’ argument to lean on, is the health care bill still Constitutional?”. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/35 "2010-03-26T16:44:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. I didn’t do anything, in the case I outlined. Yes you did. You chose to ignore a fiscal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/36 "2010-03-26T16:46:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sorry, but no. Your taxes are the same. You just opted to pay a penal tax as well. You don’t have to. > It’s also not part of your income tax, which is what Obama was talking about with his tax promse (that he’s totally kept). [Nope.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/03/obama.bush.taxes/index.html) > [@](#): > > During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama said over and over that the middle class – which he defined as anyone making less than $250,000 – would not face any tax increase. > > “If you make under $250,000, you will not see your taxes increased by a single dime. Not your income tax. Not your payroll tax. Not your capital gains tax. No tax,” he said at a campaign event in 2008. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/37 "2010-03-26T16:48:34Z")
In 2009 he _lowered_ taxes on the bottom 83%, so even if you count the insurance penalty as a tax increase it’s still a wash. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/38 "2010-03-26T16:51:05Z")
I am convinced. It is a tax. Taxes are bad. I say we leave our current system in place. Like food in a trendy restaurant, expensive healthcare is better. The fact that we pay more for worse outcome proves the point even more. Kinda like those $50 entree’s you need a magnifying glass to see. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/39 "2010-03-26T16:53:09Z")
That’s not what **Bricker** is going for. He wants to get us to admit that Obama was caught in something of a lie during his interview with Stepanopolous. In a sense, he was. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/40 "2010-03-26T16:58:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > [Nope.](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/03/obama.bush.taxes/index.html) And you have not seen any of your taxes increase. Not your income tax, your capital gains or your payroll taxes. None. If you disagree, tell m which of your taxes got increased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877.md?page=3)