# The health care bill creates a tax, and therefore is Constitutional - right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877 "2010-03-26T14:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/61 "2010-03-26T18:15:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > All taxes are avoidable. If avoidability is what gets him off the hook, then he could raise any tax and not break his promise. All taxes are avoidable? Really? Maybe you mean if you are a bum living under a bridge and dumpster diving who literally never, ever buys anything then maybe. Or perhaps if you kill yourself. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/62 "2010-03-26T18:24:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, he went out of his way to say, over and over again, that he wouldn’t raise taxes on anyone making less than whatever the amount was-- 200k or 250k, can’t remember exactly. So if the other side screams “Obama Raised Your Taxes”, they would not only be correct, they’d be pointing out a political promise that was broken. I like Obama, too, but he can’t have it both ways. But they wouldn’t be correct because it wasn’t Obama that raised their taxes. As far as I understand, this is a Senate bill, voted on by elected officials, agreed to by the House, signed into law by the President, and eventually upheld by SCOTUS. The _might_ be right to say, “The Senate, House, President, SCOTUS, and electorate, raised your taxes.” But it just won’t have the same catchy ring. I remember an executive order prohibiting federal funds for abortions. Was there also an executive order raising taxes? That is why “Obama Raised Your Taxes” is a stupid thing to say. It is meaningless. Obama didn’t use his executive privilege to call the IRS and demand that my taxes be higher. Consider ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/63 "2010-03-26T19:00:02Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > But they wouldn’t be correct because it wasn’t Obama that raised their taxes. As far as I understand, this is a Senate bill, voted on by elected officials, agreed to by the House, signed into law by the President, and eventually upheld by SCOTUS. He said “you will not see your taxes increased”-- he didn’t only say that he wouldn’t raise them. Besides, all taxes come from the legislature. And if you want to parse this so closely, then we can just say that Obama should’ve vetoed the legislation to avoid the tax increase. > [@](#): > > The _might_ be right to say, “The Senate, House, President, SCOTUS, and electorate, raised your taxes.” But it just won’t have the same catchy ring. > > I remember an executive order prohibiting federal funds for abortions. Was there also an executive order raising taxes? > > That is why “Obama Raised Your Taxes” is a stupid thing to say. It is meaningless. Obama didn’t use his executive privilege to call the IRS and demand that my taxes be higher. Actually, it is very meaningful. He supported the mandate provision and the fine (read “tax”) that was a necessary part of the mandate. And you don’t really want to go down that road, because that’s another campaign theme that he’s flipped on. He campaigned against such a mandate, as opposed to Hillary and Edwards, who did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/64 "2010-03-26T19:02:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > All taxes are avoidable? Really? > > Maybe you mean if you are a bum living under a bridge and dumpster diving who literally never, ever buys anything then maybe. Or perhaps if you kill yourself. Well, you’re the one making the “avoidable” argument, as if it were meaningful. If Congress raises my tax rate, I can “avoid” the tax increase by making less money. I don’t have to be a bum to do that. And that, btw, is a good analogy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/65 "2010-03-26T19:03:41Z")
You’re reaching further than usual, **John**. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/66 "2010-03-26T20:14:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > He said “you will not see your taxes increased”-- he didn’t only say that he wouldn’t raise them. Besides, all taxes come from the legislature. And if you want to parse this so closely, then we can just say that Obama should’ve vetoed the legislation to avoid the tax increase. But how do you know what he truly meant? Are you sure you’re not imputing your own set of beliefs onto what he said? **Bricker,** help me out here. Maybe what he meant was that you’ll be dead before you see them. Maybe he meant that you’ll be blind. Maybe he meant it will be written with white font or vanishing ink. Or maybe he meant to say, “you will not see your taxes increased during my first term.” Doesn’t this all go into effect in 2014? In which case, it’s either future-Obama’s or Palin’s fault, let that guy worry about it. Seriously, did you think he meant “You will NEVER see your taxes increased?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/67 "2010-03-26T21:14:07Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > But how do you know what he truly meant? Are you sure you’re not imputing your own set of beliefs onto what he said? I don’t think there is any other reasonable way to interpret it. I sure HOPE he didn’t mean: “Congress can pass a bazillion new taxes, but I won’t be to blame!” The only reasonable way to interpret that (unless we assume he’s a real slimeball) is that the policies he will push through Congress will not raise taxes for people who make under $250k/year. This is a policy that he pushed through Congress. It’s pretty common for presidential candidates to make all sorts of promises that can’t be implemented w/o Congress acting, btw. Closing Gitmo, ending DODT, raising/lowering taxes. I mean, we all remember the “read my lips” flap that Bush Sr. suffered. The only reasonable way to interpret those promises is that they will try to push Congress in that direction. Obama is lucky, since his party has both Houses of Congress. > [@](#): > > Bricker, help me out here. Maybe what he meant was that you’ll be dead before you see them. Maybe he meant that you’ll be blind. Maybe he meant it will be written with white font or vanishing ink. Or maybe he meant to say, “you will not see your taxes increased during my first term.” Doesn’t this all go into effect in 2014? In which case, it’s either future-Obama’s or Palin’s fault, let that guy worry about it. > > Seriously, did you think he meant “You will NEVER see your taxes increased?” I think it reasonable to assume that he meant “during his term in office”. And I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he gets to “reset” if he is re-elected. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/68 "2010-03-26T21:43:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think there is any other reasonable way to interpret it. I sure HOPE he didn’t mean: “Congress can pass a bazillion new taxes, but I won’t be to blame!” The only reasonable way to interpret that (unless we assume he’s a real slimeball) is that the policies he will push through Congress will not raise taxes for people who make under $250k/year. This is a policy that he pushed through Congress. > > It’s pretty common for presidential candidates to make all sorts of promises that can’t be implemented w/o Congress acting, btw. Closing Gitmo, ending DODT, raising/lowering taxes. I mean, we all remember the “read my lips” flap that Bush Sr. suffered. The only reasonable way to interpret those promises is that they will try to push Congress in that direction. Obama is lucky, since his party has both Houses of Congress. > I think it reasonable to assume that he meant “during his term in office”. And I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt that he gets to “reset” if he is re-elected. They were discussing this on Fox News while I was at the gym, and the deficit got mentioned. It occurred to me that it is reasonable to assume Obama meant, “all things being equal, you will not see your taxes increase.” He could promise to close Gitmo, but if it burned down and all the prisoners died before he takes office, is he breaking his promise? Given that he went on to increase spending by a trillion dollars, I can’t blame him for needing to make sure the health care bill gets properly funded. If we suddenly had to go to war with North Korea I’d also expect him to increase taxes to support the war. Or if the US suddenly found a massive deposit of Unatainium on federal land, the revenues would offset the cost and taxes could even go lower. He was campaigning a long time ago, things change, seems irresponsible for him to not adjust, and equally irresponsible to hold him to a promise made several years ago. A good lawyer probably would have made sure he included lots of conditions and riders (void where prohibited, not available to residents of Alaska) to make sure he had wiggle room. I guess I respect the guy more for not needing an asterisk on all of his statements. He could have said things like, “you will not see your taxes increase, because if raising them means we won’t pass HCR I’d rather scrap HCR.” IF taxes are increased, it’s the result of political reality. He didn’t promise smaller government then pass massive orders to increase the size of government. He promised that taxes wouldn’t be increased and that he’d get HCR. I hardly consider it a moral sin that taxes _might_ go up _slightly_ on a _few_ people because HCR got passed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/69 "2010-03-26T21:43:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You seem to be saying that it’s not a tax _increase_ because an _existing_ tax didn’t go up. Is that right? > > Question, just so I can understand where you’re coming from: If tomorrow there was a new law taxing all Americans for breathing oxygen, would you say that your taxes just got increased? That would not be an increase, no. That’s also not analogous, since this is not a tax ON anything, it’s a penalty for fiscal and civic irresponsibility. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/70 "2010-03-26T23:10:36Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That would not be an increase, no. That’s also not analogous, since this is not a tax ON anything, it’s a penalty for fiscal and civic irresponsibility. Okay. Can you point to any other similar civic “penalties” we are all asked to pay? Mind you, not fines for _doing_ something like littering, nor penalties we might incur for _not doing_ something, e.g., not paying your taxes on time? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/71 "2010-03-27T03:00:48Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > They were discussing this on Fox News while I was at the gym, and the deficit got mentioned. > > It occurred to me that it is reasonable to assume Obama meant, “all things being equal, you will not see your taxes increase.” > > He could promise to close Gitmo, but if it burned down and all the prisoners died before he takes office, is he breaking his promise? > > Given that he went on to increase spending by a trillion dollars, I can’t blame him for needing to make sure the health care bill gets properly funded. > > If we suddenly had to go to war with North Korea I’d also expect him to increase taxes to support the war. > > Or if the US suddenly found a massive deposit of Unatainium on federal land, the revenues would offset the cost and taxes could even go lower. > > He was campaigning a long time ago, things change, seems irresponsible for him to not adjust, and equally irresponsible to hold him to a promise made several years ago. > > A good lawyer probably would have made sure he included lots of conditions and riders (void where prohibited, not available to residents of Alaska) to make sure he had wiggle room. I guess I respect the guy more for not needing an asterisk on all of his statements. He could have said things like, “you will not see your taxes increase, because if raising them means we won’t pass HCR I’d rather scrap HCR.” > > IF taxes are increased, it’s the result of political reality. He didn’t promise smaller government then pass massive orders to increase the size of government. He promised that taxes wouldn’t be increased and that he’d get HCR. I hardly consider it a moral sin that taxes _might_ go up _slightly_ on a _few_ people because HCR got passed. But HCR was one of the key things he campaigned on. Nothing changed there. The fact is, you can’t require people to have HCI w/o there being some penalty for not doing so. The tax isn’t there to raise revenue-- it’s there to force people to buy HCI. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/72 "2010-03-27T03:08:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think there is any other reasonable way to interpret it. I sure HOPE he didn’t mean: “Congress can pass a bazillion new taxes, but I won’t be to blame!” The only reasonable way to interpret that (unless we assume he’s a real slimeball) is that the policies he will push through Congress will not raise taxes for people who make under $250k/year. This is a policy that he pushed through Congress. Or you could assume he meant that there will be no _net_ tax increase, which is the most sensible reading of Obama (and Bush I’s) words. Guaranteeing that there will be no new taxes whatsoever is absurd on its face; Congress modifies the tax code more or less on a weekly basis, and unless Obama is willing to veto every proposal which increases a specific tax, the promise is already void. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/73 "2010-03-27T22:21:59Z")
What is the practical difference between a tax, a fine, or a penalty? All three are money that you must pay to the government or else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/74 "2010-03-27T22:32:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or you could assume he meant that there will be no _net_ tax increase, which is the most sensible reading of Obama (and Bush I’s) words. Not really. Go back and look at what he said-- he called out a whole bunch of taxes individually, and then said “no tax”. > [@](#): > > Guaranteeing that there will be no new taxes whatsoever is absurd on its face; Congress modifies the tax code more or less on a weekly basis, and unless Obama is willing to veto every proposal which increases a specific tax, the promise is already void. Well, yeah, but he does have control over which policies he pushes Congress to act on. It’s only recently that he embraced the mandate cum penalty. During the campaign, he was only pushing full coverage for children. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/75 "2010-03-27T22:40:44Z")
Missed the edit window… > [@Obama](#): > > “If you make under $250,000, you will not see your taxes increased by a single dime. Not your income tax. Not your payroll tax. Not your capital gains tax. No tax,” he said at a campaign event in 2008. If he had stopped at that first sentence, I could buy the “no net taxes” interpretation. But not with the all the rest. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/76 "2010-03-27T22:50:07Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What is the practical difference between a tax, a fine, or a penalty? All three are money that you must pay to the government or else. The first one you can’t avoid. The latter two you can, by just doing what you are supposed to and not doing what you shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/77 "2010-03-27T22:53:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The first one you can’t avoid. The latter two you can, by just doing what you are supposed to and not doing what you shouldn’t. I could avoid taxes on cigarettes and booze by not buying them. IOW, let’s say that a six pack of beer cost $5 with a 50 cent tax added. How is this different than saying that we will fine you 50 cents for buying a six pack of beer or will attach a 50 cent penalty for beer purchasing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/78 "2010-03-27T22:53:24Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What is the practical difference between a tax, a fine, or a penalty? All three are money that you must pay to the government or else. Practical difference? Not much. In the case of a tax, you deal with the IRS. If it were a fine or a penalty (which I think are the same thing), you’d probably be dealing with the courts. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/79 "2010-03-27T22:55:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Practical difference? Not much. In the case of a tax, you deal with the IRS. I pay a federal gasoline tax all of the time while never dealing with the IRS. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877/80 "2010-03-27T22:57:23Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I pay a federal gasoline tax all of the time while never dealing with the IRS. I thought we were talking about this specific tax. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-health-care-bill-creates-a-tax-and-therefore-is-constitutional-right/533877.md?page=5)