# The Hell of Murder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627 "2009-07-29T01:54:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/1 "2009-07-29T01:54:19Z")
I have hated teh very idea of death all my life. I’ve been angry about it since the moment I understood what it was. All death, any death…young, old, disease, accident, suicide. But my god… murder is just so incredibly horrible and cruel and frustrating and maddening. And it’s possible that pointless murder that is merely a kind of collateral damage in the commission of another crime might be worst of all. I don’t know how many Dopers have read about it, but a bright, warm, generous, loving, happy and talented young girl by the name of[Lily Burk](http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/07/arrest-made-in-slaying-of-lily-burk.html), all of 17 years old, was murdered Friday night here in Los Angeles. I didn’t know her, but I am just a degree of separattion: my best friend’s daughter was friends with her and was going to appear in a play with her this week. I heard about the murder first from my friend. This is the second murder that has touched my life recently, and the first was a horrible mirror of this one: [Kirsten Brydum](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/31/nation/na-anarchist31) was actually closer, in that I knew her. She was the girlfriend of another dear friend’s son. I spent an evening with her discussing vegetarianism. Both girls shared many traits, but the key trait that might have actually led to their deaths was that they were both openhearted, generous, trusting souls with a desire to make the world a better place. They didn’t operate from a place of fear and self-protection. It’s hard to imagine the kid I was, and that my friends were, being victimized that way simply because we were actually pretty streetwise. I can’t seem to shake Lily’s murder out of my mind… I don’t know why. Maybe because it’s so easy to imagine exactly the way it happened, and how perhaps she might have not died. Samuel had no gun… if she’d screamed, run, fought. He didnt’ want to kill her, he just wanted money. Maybe because I keep imagining being her parents, playing those last phone calls over and over in my head. It’s all so fucking hideously awful. And there’s no rewind. No undo. No FUCKING FUCKING FUCKING WAY TO FIX IT. FUCK!!! Jesus fuck this beautiful spirit… the sweet good soul with the shimmering future. Tossed like a kleenex. And while I have NO love for the man who killed her, I do have some degree of sorrow and frustration for him as well. He was someone’s shimmering future at some point in his life, then something tossed him aside. Not with the finality and brutality and cruelty that Lily suffered at his hands, but still. And we have to care…if not about Samuel himself, because he’s already gone too far and is beyond our help, but for the budding Samuels. We have to care about the Samuels JUST BECAUSE we care about the LILYs and and the KIRSTENS. The only way we can hope to prevent them is not by locking up every crackhead and throwing away the key, but by doing everything we can as a society to not let anyone be thrown away. God fuck god FUCK… it’s so fucking STUPID!!! fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/2 "2009-07-29T02:05:07Z")
Hang on, let me see if I’m following you here. You seem to be saying - and correct me if I’ve got this wrong - that _murder_ is somehow _bad_? Well, it’s a provocative position, to be sure, but I hardly think it’ll get much traction in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/3 "2009-07-29T02:07:02Z")
I’m sorry to hear of your friend’s daughter’s loss. It’s a shame she has to face such senselessness so early. I’s really awful when things like this happen. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/4 "2009-07-29T02:09:06Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Hang on, let me see if I’m following you here. You seem to be saying - and correct me if I’ve got this wrong - that _murder_ is somehow _bad_? > > Well, it’s a provocative position, to be sure, but I hardly think it’ll get much traction in the real world. I lost a very very close friend to suicide just before The Trial. My mother died of old age 6 months prior to that. I didn’t even KNOW Lily and something about her death has me by the throat in a way my mother and my friend’s deaths did not. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/5 "2009-07-29T02:10:46Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And while I have NO love for the man who killed her, I do have some degree of sorrow and frustration for him as well. He was someone’s shimmering future at some point in his life, then something tossed him aside. Not with the finality and brutality and cruelty that Lily suffered at his hands, but still. And we have to care…if not about Samuel himself, because he’s already gone too far and is beyond our help, but for the budding Samuels. We have to care about the Samuels JUST BECAUSE we care about the LILYs and and the KIRSTENS. The only way we can hope to prevent them is not by locking up every crackhead and throwing away the key, but by doing everything we can as a society to not let anyone be thrown away. I sure as fuck don’t have any sympathy for him. He’s a worthless piece of shit. Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise! I have said this many times and I’ll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms **and sterilization** for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I’m also in favor of a lot of things that aren’t even constitutional, and I’m not ashamed to admit it. I’m in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one. What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don’t believe in the idea that “it makes you no better than them.” No. That’s not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt. I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I’m absolutely 100% serious and I don’t care how insane it makes me seem. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/6 "2009-07-29T02:13:26Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I lost a very very close friend to suicide just before The Trial. My mother died of old age 6 months prior to that. > > I didn’t even KNOW Lily and something about her death has me by the throat in a way my mother and my friend’s deaths did not. I really understand this. I had three people close to me die in unexpected ways within three months. I handled the first two pretty well. The third death triggered panic attacks and I found my way into therapy for the first time ever. Sometimes the cumulative effect of these stressors can come out in unexpected ways. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/7 "2009-07-29T02:19:01Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise! Yes. For petty theft. He’s never been convicted of a violent crime, there would never be a reason to think he’d commit a crime like this. That was what I meant by collateral - I don’t think he intended to kill her, I think he became violent out of rage or frustration and the next thing you know…she’s gone. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/8 "2009-07-29T02:21:35Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I’m absolutely 100% serious and I don’t care how insane it makes me seem. That’s good, because it makes you seem like a whole shitload of insane. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/9 "2009-07-29T02:25:46Z")
ETA: replying to AT Dude, no one can mention gunning their engine in a thread without you chiming in with a hundred and one Constitutional arguments protecting their rights. And yet all along it’s been empty rhetoric, based solely on “I wants me guns” because you don’t give a crap about any of the other amendments or the Constitution in general? You’re espousing an ethical system that makes SmashTheState look scholarly, and then drawing a line to declare dissenters morally bankrupt? You’re a bit one-tracked in general, but at least you usually put a bit of thought into things. What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/10 "2009-07-29T02:29:00Z")
I truly believe in a reciprocal concept of justice. I respect the established system of justice that we have in America because I believe that I am an American first and an individual second, so I will conform to the law as it is written in our Constitution. However, if it were up to me, our Constitution would be different. Including an amendment fully legalizing all forms of drugs. It’s not like wanting to change _some_ things about the constitution means you have no respect at all for the whole Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/11 "2009-07-29T02:30:22Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yes. For petty theft. He’s never been convicted of a violent crime, there would never be a reason to think he’d commit a crime like this. That was what I meant by collateral - I don’t think he intended to kill her, I think he became violent out of rage or frustration and the next thing you know…she’s gone. **Stoid** , at least some of us got your point. And I agree: there’s no joy in the killing of anyone, no matter how much resentment they stir up in us. But we can be there for those devastated by senseless violence and other tragedies. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/12 "2009-07-29T02:33:28Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I sure as fuck don’t have any sympathy for him. He’s a worthless piece of shit. > > Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise! > > I have said this many times and I’ll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms **and sterilization** for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I’m also in favor of a lot of things that aren’t even constitutional, and I’m not ashamed to admit it. I’m in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one. > > What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don’t believe in the idea that “it makes you no better than them.” No. That’s not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt. > > I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I’m absolutely 100% serious and I don’t care how insane it makes me seem. Why are you telling us? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/13 "2009-07-29T02:35:01Z")
Well, if you’d like some calming levity, I suggest an article at [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) titled “[7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls)](http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)”. Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/14 "2009-07-29T02:39:31Z")
Because I think we’re moving closer and closer to a criminal “justice” system which favors the criminals and not their victims, and I wish we would move in the opposite direction. It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money. This is simply not civilized behavior. I truly believe that as human beings we have been given a great gift, the gift of civilization. I think that for the good of all mankind, those who do not conform to certain basic rules of civilization, like “don’t kill an innocent person” need to be _removed_ from civilization because they clearly do not want to abide by its standards. Brutal punishment for criminals doesn’t mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized? It’s not like I’m advocating a return to gladiators and feeding people to animals, but frankly it really would not bother me if Charles Samuels was drawn and quartered. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/15 "2009-07-29T02:49:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money. It’s worth noting that this has not happened in this thread. > [@](#): > > Brutal punishment for criminals doesn’t mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized? Yes. The ancient Roman were brutal fucking savages. It was an unbelievably monstrous society. By any modern calculation, they were a viciously depraved and throughly evil nation, of the sort you normally find as the villains in underwritten fantasy novels. Also, I’m unclear on why gladiatorial combat and feeding people to animals is bad, but public executions by torture are good. How do you figure one to be any worse than the other? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/16 "2009-07-29T02:52:57Z")
I want to stress that the views I have put forth in this thread are not some impulsive “gut instinct” like what is being discussed in that other thread about the death penalty for rapists. It is a personal philosophy that I have gradually adopted over a long period of time based on my studies of history - that a society can have a draconian justice system and still be civilized. All of the great developments of the Renaissance, all of the scientific and artistic innovations which came out of it, happened under governments that used the most brutal punishments on criminals. Shakespeare, Tycho and Kepler, Leonardo and Caravaggio - all products of societies which embraced more or less the same attitude towards violent criminals which I do. Of course, there was also unjust persecution of people during that time who did nothing wrong, based solely on their religion. I’m not justifying that. You can learn from the past and also improve on it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/17 "2009-07-29T03:00:38Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > It bothers me very much when someone expresses any sympathy for the murderer of an innocent teenage girl over a little bit of money. I want to quote the words of the young man who loved Kirsten, words he wrote a few months after her death (I love this kid so much, he’s amazing.) > [@](#): > > Many of the relationships I have had would probably have stood a better chance with out me picking at them. Most of my wounds would probably heal nicely had I not been so enamored with what happens when I unravel my sutures. > > Questioning leaves nasty scars. I have been picking at a fresh scab for the last few weeks. > > One of my oldest and dearest friends, a girl with whom I spent a substantial portion of my youth romantically involved , was murdered while traveling the country conducting research for a project she called “collective autonomy” (living free and independently together) and I can’t help but ponder the what ifs. > If someone in New Orleans had been paid to counsel parents on the importance of physical interactions and reading out loud to their infants, if those parents took that advice to heart, if those parents made enough money to give their child every ounce of education, every sports uniform and every toy for every birthday if that kid never felt alone, awkward or deprived, if that kid didn’t turn into a desperate teenager who felt alienated and forgotten by a country hell-bent on neglecting its desperately impoverished, if that teenager was taught how to deal with anger and depression in a constructive way by someone sincere and reliable. > > If there were better streetlights in the 9th ward. > > If in 1965 when the Mississippi gulf outlet was completed, someone would have noticed that it intensified the power of hurricanes by more than 20%. If the levees didn’t break; if FEMA and the president hadn’t avoided and mismanaged every element of recovery. > > If they had seen my friend’s smile when she used to hold my little sister, or when she talked about social equality. > > If someone, anyone, along the way had seen this person and shown them a fraction of the love I felt for the woman they murdered, maybe there would have been a different outcome, and she would still be alive. > > Deconstruction like this only works to reconstruct whatever trauma inspired it. Taking apart reality in this way leaves me with an unfortunate result; the world is laid out in front of me in nice pieces, each one detached and disassembled, and I can’t for the life of me remember how to put them back together in a way that works. > > Controlling things has little to do with understanding them and even less to do with taking them apart. Football teams still lose regardless of a fantasy league. The Dalai Lama is still left with piles of springs and no answers, and I am left with one less friend and a thousand more questions. He was wounded in the very depths of his soul by her death, and still he can see it from such an evolved place. I love him to pieces, and I know that both Kirsten and Lily saw the world very much the same way. No, it’s not to excuse Samuel or the anonymous killer of Kirsten, but is it really so impossible to hope that we can see how the killers are made and try to prevent their development? We’ll never stop the Jeffrey Dahmers, that’s something that I believe is written on the DNA of a person. But the majority of murders are committed by people _who weren’t born that way._ And if we want to PREVENT the senseless death of a thousand Lilys, our best chance is not to act out our rage on Samuel, but to see where the other Samuels are forming, and try to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/18 "2009-07-29T03:03:19Z")
Well, that’s one way of looking at it, and my way is another way. I won’t try to convince you to see things my way, but I won’t adopt someone else’s views. I have my own principles; that’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/19 "2009-07-29T03:03:49Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Brutal punishment for criminals doesn’t mean that civilization becomes barbaric. There were brutal punishments in ancient Rome - were the ancient Romans uncivilized? I guess it depends on what you consider civilization. I happen to think that civilization encompasses more than a well-formed political system and plumbing. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/20 "2009-07-29T03:09:01Z")
Well, as I said, you can look at it your way, and I’ll look at it my way. I consider Singapore to be a very civilized place - you’d probably consider it uncivilized. Whatever. Different people see things differently. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627.md?page=2)