# The Hell of Murder **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627 "2009-07-29T01:54:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/21 "2009-07-29T03:14:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if you’d like some calming levity, I suggest an article at [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) titled “[7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls)](http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)”. Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death. Thank you for that, I haven’t finished chekcing it out, but I watched the video about the young man who had to cut off his arm. I watched the whole program when it originally aired, and he blew me away. Watching it just now I felt myself tearing up for him. What a hellish experience, how phenomenal was his courage and strength! I love life but I’m a big baby and for all the guts I have around emotional things, I’m useless with physical. I think I would have just cried until I passed out and died. ---
**Author:** ![supergoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@supergoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supergoose)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/22 "2009-07-29T03:21:48Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > No, it’s not to excuse Samuel or the anonymous killer of Kirsten, but is it really so impossible to hope that we can see how the killers are made and try to prevent their development? We’ll never stop the Jeffrey Dahmers, that’s something that I believe is written on the DNA of a person. But the majority of murders are committed by people _who weren’t born that way._ And if we want to PREVENT the senseless death of a thousand Lilys, our best chance is not to act out our rage on Samuel, but to see where the other Samuels are forming, and try to stop it. First off, I’m sorry for your loss. Maybe your reaction to Lily’s death is more intense because it comes on the heels of your other loses, but it could also be simply the manner in which she died. Your close friend had control over his/her death, and your mother died naturally after a long, likely fulfilled life, whereas Lily died randomly and violently far younger than she likely would have naturally. Secondly, I disagree that people like Dahmer are genetically caused to be murderers. You might have a point regarding people who have no feelings or conscience towards other people - I don’t know what causes that - but sexually sadistic murders, I believe, are caused by skewed sexual imprinting, which isn’t clearly understood, but, as far as I know, happens at puberty and is an issue of nurture rather than nature. Thirdly, I don’t know exactly why, but the way you write about these murders (in pretty much every post in this thread\*) to me sounds off-puttingly pompous and pontificating. Just something to maybe keep in mind in future. \*Edit: your last several posts (and subsequent one) are fine in tone, to my ears. Sorry about my blanket statement. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/23 "2009-07-29T03:21:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, if you’d like some calming levity, I suggest an article at [Cracked.com](http://Cracked.com) titled “[7 People Who Cheated Death (Then Kicked it in the Balls)](http://www.cracked.com/article_16497_7-people-who-cheated-death-then-kicked-it-in-balls.html)”. Only one specifically survived a murder attempt (though a second was a POW, which is kinda close), and the overall message is simple: FUCK death. Thanks again because it was very amusingly written! Now I’m all grinny. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/24 "2009-07-29T03:23:18Z")
> [@supergoose](#): > > Thirdly, I don’t know exactly why, but the way you write about these murders (in pretty much every post in this thread) to me sounds off-puttingly pompous and pontificating. Just something to maybe keep in mind in future. I have a tendency to sound that way in all kinds of situations, unfortunately. Can’t always tell. But it’s a lifelong affliction: I was less articulately accused of the same thing when I was in grade school. Both my parents have the same tendency, I’m sure that has everything to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/25 "2009-07-29T03:29:01Z")
> [@supergoose](#): > > Secondly, I disagree that people like Dahmer are genetically caused to be murderers. You might have a point regarding people who have no feelings or conscience towards other people - I don’t know what causes that - but sexually sadistic murders, I believe, are caused by skewed sexual imprinting, which isn’t clearly understood, but, as far as I know, happens at puberty and is an issue of nurture rather than nature. > . I thought that Dahmer was skinning kittens when he was just a kid? But whichever way, the sick runs really, really deep. The ones that REALLY blow my mind are the guy-next-door killers, the hubby/wife sick of their spouse, decides that the best way to be rid of them is murder. WHAT? PARDON ME? Very strange. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/26 "2009-07-29T03:31:58Z")
You know what works a heck of a lot better than draconian punishment? Certain punishment. If the odds of getting caught are low enough, human beings discount the severity of the consequences. It can’t happen to THEM. But if you’re pretty much guaranteed to be caught the punishment itself doesn’t have to be that severe, because the cause and effect are obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/27 "2009-07-29T03:35:43Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I sure as fuck don’t have any sympathy for him. He’s a worthless piece of shit. > > Guess what else? He was on parole when he committed this murder! Surprise surprise! > > I have said this many times and I’ll say it once more. I am in favor of the harshest possible penalties for violent crime. I believe in mandatory death sentences for murder, forcible rape, and armed robbery. When I say death sentence, I mean death sentence. One appeal - ONE - and then death. I believe in mandatory 25-year prison terms **and sterilization** for burglary, auto theft and other non-violent crimes. I’m also in favor of a lot of things that aren’t even constitutional, and I’m not ashamed to admit it. I’m in favor of cruel and unusual punishment for some offenses. I am in favor of torture, including torturing to death, for a cold blooded murder like this one. > > What can I say? I support cruelty and brutality to those who are themselves cruel and brutal. I don’t believe in the idea that “it makes you no better than them.” No. That’s not the way it works. There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt. > > I wish for a return to the days of drawing and quartering, public execution, etc. I’m absolutely 100% serious and I don’t care how insane it makes me seem. I’ve been meaning to start a thread about this in GD forever, maybe I’ll motivate you to do it for me. 🙂 Here’s how the business end of RR’s criminal justice system works: three tiers of punishment. Tier 1: For nonviolent crime, property crimes, and maybe even some young first offenders that commit violent crime, the punishment is a boot camp of sorts, with the idea being that the person wasn’t socialized properly by their parents or whoever so they state will try to do the job. Tier 2: If people who have been to boot camp re-offend, and for all violent criminals (other than young first-time offenders and those that are dealt with in Tier 3), the punishment is essentially Coventry–life in prison (or somewhere outside of society where they can’t return) with no possibility of parole. Tier 3: For rape and murder, the punishment is death. Also, I generally support a limit on appeals, but I haven’t thought through the actual parameters of this. I just think that a 5- or 10- or 20-year sentence for someone who commits burglary or armed robbery or whatever is just an incredibly stupid idea. It turns prisons into a breeding ground for better criminals (it’s like grad school really). Either try to teach those folks how to be proper members of society (Tier 1) or banish them (Tier 2). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/28 "2009-07-29T03:36:31Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Well, as I said, you can look at it your way, and I’ll look at it my way. I consider Singapore to be a very civilized place - you’d probably consider it uncivilized. Whatever. Different people see things differently. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/29 "2009-07-29T03:38:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Of course, there was also unjust persecution of people during that time who did nothing wrong, based solely on their religion. I’m not justifying that. You can learn from the past and also improve on it. Indeed, you can. Which is precisely why we no longer consider public execution by torture to be an acceptable practice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/30 "2009-07-29T03:42:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong? Ah, the smart set weighs in. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/31 "2009-07-29T03:44:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you were physically or sexually abused as a child. Am I wrong? You’re…wrong, Dr. Drew. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/32 "2009-07-29T03:58:16Z")
That’s OK, someday maybe you will be able to talk about it. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/33 "2009-07-29T04:05:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You know what works a heck of a lot better than draconian punishment? > > Certain punishment. > > If the odds of getting caught are low enough, human beings discount the severity of the consequences. It can’t happen to THEM. > > But if you’re pretty much guaranteed to be caught the punishment itself doesn’t have to be that severe, because the cause and effect are obvious. This will never happen. I don’t think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim’s car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/34 "2009-07-29T04:06:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That’s OK, someday maybe you will be able to talk about it. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/35 "2009-07-29T04:20:03Z")
**Towers/Rover** in 2012: America’s Lashing Back!™ ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/36 "2009-07-29T04:21:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There is a difference between some crackhead piece of shit brutally murdering an innocent 17-year-old girl for no reason, and that murderer being tortured to death as punishment for what he did. Those who deny this difference are morally bankrupt. Why my soul just filed for Chapter 11. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/37 "2009-07-29T04:28:31Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I truly believe in a reciprocal concept of justice. I respect the established system of justice that we have in America because I believe that I am an American first and an individual second, so I will conform to the law as it is written in our Constitution. However, if it were up to me, our Constitution would be different. **Including an amendment fully legalizing all forms of drugs**. It’s not like wanting to change _some_ things about the constitution means you have no respect at all for the whole Constitution. – bolding mine. It’s obviously not stopping you from using massive amounts. Nurse! ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/38 "2009-07-29T04:31:23Z")
I get what you’re talking about - my girlfriend’s father was murdered last year around Thanksgiving. He was shot in the head and chest several times. It has wrought terrible havoc on her psyche that I don’t think she will ever really get over. What’s worse is it happened in Guatemala (where she is from), and there is basically no chance of the killers ever being apprehended or dealt with in any way. The country’s central government is weak, corrupt, and underfunded and the narco-traffickers basically run the place, giving them free reign to shoot whoever they want without consequences. She has led me to understand that some people in her family (cousins) are making some attempt to locate the killers, but can expect no help from the police and are putting their own lives at risk by doing so. It’s a shitty state of affairs and it’s very hard to offer any consolation. Sure everyone has to die, but not like that. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/39 "2009-07-29T04:32:22Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > This will never happen. I don’t think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim’s car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge. What many people don’t realize is how real becoming institutionalized really is, and I think that has a lot to do with this kind of behavior. After a person has spent enough time in prison, the real world is terrifying. They have no faith in their ability to function outside of a prison setting, so they just act out in any way they like, fully aware they will end up back in prison and just as happy to do so. I lived with a guy when I was very young who suffered from that and when life on the street just got too hard, he robbed a bank and then went and sat on a bus bench and waited for the cops to come and get him and take him back where he felt safe and knew how to function. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2009, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627/40 "2009-07-29T04:32:33Z")
> [@Pedro](#): > > This will never happen. I don’t think most people realise how difficult and expensive it is to clear many murder cases. How do you explain this case then? Clearly this is an individual who is not very concerned with certain punishment. Commits murder with little motive and walks into two policeman with bloody clothes, a crack pipe and the victim’s car keys. Gets arrested under 90 minutes later for an unrelated charge. Gosh, if only the murderer had known he’d be harshly punished, he wouldn’t have done did it! But since we coddle criminals in this country by not torturing them to death, they just rape and kill whenever they please, and the courts can’t do a thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-hell-of-murder/504627.md?page=3)